Chakras

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Re: Chakras

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:20 pm

danieLion wrote:
daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:Chakra work is not jhana.
That's probably true, but it can induce jhana, which isn't saying much more than you can't do jhana and chakra work simultaneously. However, this is different from saying chakra work is not Dhamma. The chakras may be involved in jahna. This can be doubted but not contradicted.


With the above, you are struggling to shift the burden of proof. Chakras as an idea can be dated to what, the 7th century CE? If you want to tell me that the Buddha was talking about them in any way, you've got a long row to hoe.

And the claim that working with them is an alternative entrée to jhana is quite an argument! Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.

Also, do you think jhana is exclusively Buddhist territory?


This goes far beyond the scope of the thread.

It all does, really.

:focus:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Chakras

Postby Raksha » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:46 pm

ccharles wrote:Do you know any monks that could help me in this regard? Are you suggesting I see a Theravadan monk or some Vajrayana monk?

Ideally you should consult with a Buddhist teacher with whom you are already familiar, and if they are unable to help, then they might be able to recommend someone. Vajrayana masters are usually obstructively silent on such matters, particularly with Westerners, and Theravada monks are often afflicted with a kind of quasi-Western scientific viewpoint that leads them to try to deny anything supernatural, so as not to appear foolish and backward, particularly in front of Westerners. However, if you put forward your request for help repeatedly, in simple terms, and with complete sincerity then they should help you.
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Re: Chakras

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:36 pm

daverupa wrote:And the claim that working with them is an alternative entrée to jhana is quite an argument!

Tummo practices can certainly induce the jhāna factors.

daverupa wrote:Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. However, there are Buddhist yogis in this world who are remarkable monks and exceptional meditators and are living examples of the effectiveness of trulkhor, tsalung, and tummo practices.
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Re: Chakras

Postby Tom » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:08 pm

Raksha wrote: However, if you put forward your request for help repeatedly, in simple terms, and with complete sincerity then they should help you.

I want to make it clear though I am not at all saying I am experiencing anything supernatural, I was just simply experiencing intrusive thoughts/visualizations, while I was attempting to visualize white light radiating out of my chakras, that made me worry if they could have some negative effect on me or manifest in my life somehow. In your opinion, do you think this is something to be seriously worried about, or is it probably just unnecessary anxiety?
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:39 am

daverupa wrote:If you want to tell me that the Buddha was talking about them in any way, you've got a long row to hoe.
I don't want to tell you that. But I do want to tell you that just because the Buddha didn't talk about it doesn't mean it isn't Dhamma or that he was unaware of them.

daverupa wrote:And the claim that working with them is an alternative entrée to jhana is quite an argument! Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.
I didn't claim that I don't think they're an alternative to Right Concentration. However, I see no problem with using them to gladden the mind during anapanasati, or to aid one in to getting into jhana.
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:48 am

ccharles wrote:I think this type of thinking is within the OCD Spectrum, which I've been diagnosed with before. To be honest, I feel like I can help my self overcome this if I use the right techniques, without the need for a therapist. Is there any Dhamma teachings or meditation techniques that could help me work with this? I'm slightly turned off by modern psychiatry, so I'd prefer working on this using the Buddha's teachings.

ccharles wrote:Is something to be seriously worried about, or is it probably just unnecessary anxiety?

charles,
In my opinion, it is unecessary anxiety which you're creating and nurturing through worry. Look to the Buddha's advice on letting go of thoughts, and if that's not sufficient analyze what you're doing in terms of what Cognitive Behavioral Therapists call cognitive disortions, which are usually the cause of most anxiety. Books in this field are cheap and most libraries have them. Look for authors like David D. Burns, Aaron T. Beck and Albert Ellis, as they will generally agree with you that you don't need to see a therapist, being self-help pioneers and all. Since we can't give advice here, I can't say if you need a therapist or not. Maybe you do. But, again IN MY OPINION, therapists should be a second to last resort (right after drugs as the last resort).

We all have intrusive thoughts. It's what we do with them that's most important. Remember, they're just thoughts.
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:33 pm

Here's a talk by Reverend Geoff (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) where he talks about using chakras during anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing).

Link

The talk was given on September 6, 2012 and is titled "Breath Energies."
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Re: Chakras

Postby marc108 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:25 am

daverupa wrote: Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.


Practice! 'Chakra work' can for sure lead to Jhana if done correctly. You can apply all the same principles as with Anapanasati.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Chakras

Postby daverupa » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:06 am

marc108 wrote:Practice! 'Chakra work' can for sure lead to Jhana if done correctly. You can apply all the same principles as with Anapanasati.


Now, I can probably be educated here. I am under the impression that, very generally, chakra practice involves intention with respect to the breath and/or some energy/ies. I may be confused, then, about not seeing a correspondence:

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Chakras

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:24 am

Chakras can lead to Jhanas by training the concentration of mind. Like a very first step.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Chakras

Postby marc108 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:57 am

daverupa wrote:
marc108 wrote:Practice! 'Chakra work' can for sure lead to Jhana if done correctly. You can apply all the same principles as with Anapanasati.


Now, I can probably be educated here. I am under the impression that, very generally, chakra practice involves intention with respect to the breath and/or some energy/ies. I may be confused, then, about not seeing a correspondence:

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'


the traditional practices regarding chakras dont have the benefit of the standardization the Buddhist practices have, and 'chakra work' is in no way as complete a system as the Buddhas approach to breathing meditation imo. the practices will vary drastically depending on the school/teacher, but generally there is some standardized breathing practice combined with the intention to move energies in the body... similar to a body scan... and then some sort of kasina practice. so (imo) while the Buddhas systematized approach to entering Jhana is far superior, the actual methods for entering Jhana are not much different than the Yogic methods.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Chakras

Postby Nyana » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:45 pm

marc108 wrote:the traditional practices regarding chakras dont have the benefit of the standardization the Buddhist practices have, and 'chakra work' is in no way as complete a system as the Buddhas approach to breathing meditation imo.

There are complete Buddhist systems of practice in the Indo-Tibetan traditions that integrate breathing practices, body work, chakras, subtle energies, etc.
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