Rebirth consciousness

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Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:08 am

Is Patisndi Citta or Vinnana (Rebirth conciseness) arise with the sperm or the egg?
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:01 am

As far as I know, neither. It arises with the fertilized egg at conception. The Buddha said that for conception to take place three things must be present – the sexual union of the parents, their fertility and the presence of the gandhabba, ie. the consciousness of the being who is to be reborn (MN I.265). This consciousness absorbs itself in the fertilised egg and begins to animate it so that it grows into a fully formed being. "Consciousness" used here in conventional language, not meant to imply anything permanent; perhaps transference of kammic energies is a better term.
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:07 am

Thanks David. How do we explain identical twins. (split egg)
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:24 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks David. How do we explain identical twins. (split egg)


No soul, no problemo.

Probably something like: the rebirth consciousness or kammic energies (or whatever you want to call it) from one being "went" to one of the fertilized eggs and another rebirth consciousness went to the other fertilized egg. "It" wasn't there before fertilization when the egg was still one. The rebirth consciousnesses "arrived" after fertilization when there were two, so I suppose could be from two different beings (from a prior life).
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:39 am

Thanks. My understanding is that the split of egg happens after the fertilisation (for identical twins).
On the other hand if we talk about a so called (“being “ ie. Gandhabba) aren't we clinging to personality belief (sole theory)?
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby santa100 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:22 am

That's why it's important to see the difference between gandhabba and the concept of a permanent soul. Ven. Thanissaro clarified this in his intro. for MN 38 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):

gandhabba in this context means a being whose kamma enables it to take birth on that occasion, an interpretation supported by a discussion in MN 93.

By introducing a being into the discussion, the Buddha might be suspected of introducing a "what" into his discussion of birth. However, on the level of dependent co-arising, the Buddha did not treat the concept of a being as a "what." His definition of a "being" shows that he recommended that it, too, be regarded as a process:

As he was sitting there, Ven. Rādha said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Rādha: When one is caught up [satta] there, tied up [visatta] there, one is said to be 'a being [satta].'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Rādha: When one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'"

— SN 23.2

Thus the Buddha advocated viewing a "being" simply as a process of attachment to desire, passion, delight, and craving. And it is precisely this attachment to craving that allows for rebirth after death
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:51 am

Thank you Santa. This is the first time I came across this teaching.

By the way what is your thought about identical twins?
Can I imagine that the consciousness like a river and it branch out??
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:19 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks. My understanding is that the split of egg happens after the fertilisation (for identical twins).


Oh, that's right; it's been a long time since I had a biology class. It is in/after the zygote stage that it splits to two. I guess that could raise more of an issue / problem for soul theories, but since Buddhism doesn't have that, perhaps there is no issue.
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby santa100 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:31 am

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -identical

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/24/iden ... -the-womb/

Hi SarathW, science reveals new findings every day and from the latest ones like above, it seems like identical twins come from separate gandhabbas. Afterall, even identical twins will grow up and be subjected to different futures according to their own separate kamma. There's no doubt that their old kamma(ie. what they acted, thought, and spoke) in their previous life was very very similar and that's why they share the same kind of initial environment in this current life. However, it can't be exactly the same kamma,ie. one could die abruptly as a result of a car accident in his teenage year while the other might live to a ripe old age. One might grow up to be a wealthy company CEO but married to a nasty woman while the other might grow up to be a modest car mechanic but married to a good wife and have nice children, etc..
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby DAWN » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:38 am

No craving for procreation of yourself - no problemo
No craving for havig some litte living toy - no problemo
No craving for sensual pleasure - no problemo

:strawman:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:31 pm

David: Your comment was very interesting. When I raised this question I thought that identical twins question will be an issue to no soul theory.
Santa : your links are very helpful

Thanks every one.

I like to have you opinion on another question. Does Sperm cells arisen with five aggregate?
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:18 am

Thanks every one. I got the answer to my questin in another post. Please read the following link. :smile:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby robertk » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:35 pm

SarathW wrote:David: Your comment was very interesting. When I raised this question I thought that identical twins question will be an issue to no soul theory.
Santa : your links are very helpful

Thanks every one.

I like to have you opinion on another question. Does Sperm cells arisen with five aggregate?

Sperm cells are merely rupa (one aggregate).
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby SarathW » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:44 pm

Hi Robertk
Sorry I am not sure of this. If I we look at the theory of evolution, we evolved overtime. Human and animals are just an aggregate of cells.
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:22 pm

Greetings Robert,

How then to account for their behaviour, as observed under microscope? Doesn't seem like merely rupa...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:51 am

SarathW wrote:David: Your comment was very interesting. When I raised this question I thought that identical twins question will be an issue to no soul theory.


Yes, it seems to be more of an issue or problem for those philosophies that advocate a soul. If life / the soul begins at conception and then it later divides into identical twins, what is it? Is it two people sharing the same soul? How does it become 2 souls from one? But no problem with the Buddhist doctrine of anatta.
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:26 pm

Quite a big problem with respect to abortions?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby ground » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:44 pm

SarathW wrote:Is Patisndi Citta or Vinnana (Rebirth conciseness) arise with the sperm or the egg?

From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


:sage:
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:42 pm

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Rebirth consciousness

Postby Aloka » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:05 am

What does a ''rebirth consciousness'' actually look like ? How does it move about ?
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