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listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening - Dhamma Wheel

listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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beeblebrox
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listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:21 pm

I've been thinking about this recently... usually, it seems like when most practitioners talk about the use of a conventional language, they focus on the side of what is being spoken, but seem to neglect the other side... i.e., "conventional listening" vs. "ultimate listening."

I think that this is the kind of listening where a person does not see a "self" (or at least makes an attempt not to), along with not trying to see the "permanence," or the "perfect non-dukkha," in what's being said. I think that is "listening with wisdom."

I had a realization recently, that this sort of listening would apply even while listening to a non-practitioner... including even those not familiar with the Dhamma.

It seems like that when a person says something like, "I think that you're great," or "Your behavior sucks," while this might seem like the person had a view of the specific person, who embodied these qualities, that probably wasn't his/her intention in the first place.

From the point view of a listener (who has the wisdom), that person's intention was probably just to point out the bad or good qualities... i.e., to just point out the conditions which were seen as wholesome or unwholesome. It just happened that this speaker was framing these things as a "person," instead of using Dhammic terms... but that doesn't change the message.

So, it's not useful, or even wise, to tell that person (especially if he/she wasn't a practitioner) that he/she was just seeing a "self" that was never there... because that is very likely not the point of what this person was trying to say in the first place. I think listening in this way only makes things confusing or bothersome (i.e., dukkha), and probably a waste of everyone's time. This kind of comment of there being "no self," or "no person," I think is probably more of a reflection on the listener's wisdom, than the speaker's.

The speaker was merely sharing an observation of the conditions...

I'm pretty sure that with a person who listens with wisdom, things would be understood (and then get resolved) much quicker... because then this person sees the actual intention, whether the speaker knew how to frame them or not.

For example, if a speaker said that someone wasn't behaving in a way that he/she likes, then the person listening to that knows that there were conditions which were seen as unbeneficial. He doesn't become fixated on the usage of "someone," and then tries to attribute that fault to the person speaking, for having a delusion of self... (which actually, if you paid attention carefully, is more the listener's delusion, than speaker's.)

It seems like an interesting twist on the art of conventional language... using the point of view of a listener.

Thoughts?

:anjali:

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DAWN
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby DAWN » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:49 pm

I'am agree. :anjali:

Often, before sayng some critics to someone, i say in introduction that what i will say it's not a critics of him personaly, but critics of such and such statement, belief, idea. :console:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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Cittasanto
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:01 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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beeblebrox
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:14 pm


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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:51 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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beeblebrox
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:18 pm

Last edited by beeblebrox on Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:07 pm

you seamed to be referring to the Ajahn Chah quote so....


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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beeblebrox
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:16 pm


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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:00 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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beeblebrox
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:31 pm

In case it wasn't noticed... I treated Ajahn Chah's quote to be in agreement with what I said.

In my post, I clearly explained that "listening with wisdom," involves listening to conventional words, as they are, in themselves, whether it's spoken by a practitioner or a non-practitioner, even by those unfamiliar with the Dhamma... already with the understanding of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha, of these words.

It doesn't involve the expectation that the other person should be framing his/her words in certain ways... i.e., in ways that "affirm" the ideas of non-self, impermanence, and dukkha... because those are already understood, by the listener. Even when the speaker doesn't know such concepts.

I think that only then, the listener could be seen to have the wisdom.

I don't see Ajahn Chah's comment as a rejection of the Heart Sutra, by the way (as the person who wrote down that quote seemed to think was the intention)... it was a clarification which he conveyed, to the person (or a series of conditions, if you prefer) who was reciting the sutra.

:anjali:

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Cittasanto
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:12 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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beeblebrox
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:22 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:05 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
beeblebrox
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:15 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:04 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: listening with wisdom vs. deluded listening

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:19 pm



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