About Kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:49 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
santa100 wrote: I haven't attained "Direct Knowledge" so there's no way for me to say with 100% certainty about anything.

Yet you do.
he would NOT be able to attain arahantship in his current life because of the Five Heinous Crimes rules


I provided my take on the issue. I've never said you have to agree with me. At least I did not jump to conclusions like:

Bluelotus wrote:
It doesn't sound right a compassionate Buddha waited till he killed so many people (what the difference of your own mother and some other mother anyway) if he could help the guy before.. OR:

Killing your own mother is unimaginable but killing your neighbor's mother is somewhat imaginable? It sound like possessive thinking of someone stuck in self-view..
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Re: About Kamma

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:02 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Buddha explains "on the dissolution of the body, after death" sinners reappear in hell. What are your thoughts on the suttas?


Well, let's go the text (MN 136), where we see that the very next passage after the one you've quoted is

(ii) "But here some person kills living beings... and has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.


Later, we find the Buddha explain that some will see these differing pieces of evidence and

obstinately misapprehends what he himself has known, seen and felt; insisting on that alone, he says: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.'


So this is the problem being discussed. What is the alternative? Since

there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result)."


we can understand that kamma functions in many diverse ways which can fool and mislead the puthujjana; and, given this complexity, the precise workings out of kamma are imponderable.

But the important thing - the general theme of intention and consequence - is consistently described, and is what allows us to train the mind and practice the Dhamma with benefit; it pays to focus on this to the exclusion of the past and the future, whereby wrong attention is developed, per MN 2.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:08 pm

santa100 wrote:I provided my take on the issue.


Your take on the issue is that a person who killed his mother can NEVER become an arahath in his current life no matter how much he practices and develops sila because you read so in an old parchment. True there is a possibility the old parchment is correct but there is also the possibility we are mistranslating, misinterpreting, misunderstanding something which came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand over 1000s of years ago. Who knows it was not tampered with, distorted etc without any doubt at all?

Currently, I like to think anyone who develops dhamma can attain nibbana irrespective of the skeletons in his closet. But who knows. Maybe kamma gets to us in not seeing ways.

santa100 wrote:I've never said you have to agree with me.

As I clear said, let's disagree and move on. No need to tell each other to open their minds when we both seem to attach to our views right? :jumping:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
Your take on the issue is that a person who killed his mother can NEVER become an arahath in his current life no matter how much he practices and develops sila because you read so in an old parchment. True there is a possibility the old parchment is correct but there is also the possibility we are mistranslating, misinterpreting, misunderstanding something which came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand over 1000s of years ago. Who knows it was not tampered with, distorted etc without any doubt at all?


Again, I did not just make up what I said. You can read the suttas for yourself. There're always possibilities for mistranlastion but until one could provide clear evidence to prove that's the case, it'll remain one's own assumption. I agree that we disagree and that we should move on.. :anjali:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:21 pm

santa100 wrote:Again, I did not just make up what I said.


I know. You read it in sutta. :tongue:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:22 pm

At least we're clear on that... :tongue:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:26 pm

santa100 wrote: There're always possibilities for mistranlastion but until one could provide clear evidence to prove that's the case, it'll remain one's own assumption.


It will always be assumption because we cannot say with 100% certain if those few suttas are corrupted. But it maybe a fair assumption. I have not mastered sutta yet but so far the suttas I have read Buddha seems to say that anyone following the 8-fold path to its completion attain nibbana. The noble path is open to all and nibbana is open to anyone following it. That says a lot.
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:30 pm

Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:41 pm

santa100 wrote:Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:

Yea like in general suttas are correct but like anything else in life, there'll always be exception like suttas that are misinterpreted/taken out of context. :stirthepot:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:47 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
santa100 wrote:Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:

Yea like in general suttas are correct but like anything else in life, there'll always be exception like suttas that are misinterpreted/taken out of context. :stirthepot:


Please prove why the sutta you have in mind was misinterpreted/taken out of context? Actually, I'll make it simpler for you: please provide a single instance of any man or woman in the suttas who were able to attain arahantship right in the immediate life that they killed their own parents?
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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:00 pm

santa100 wrote:Please prove why the sutta you have in mind was misinterpreted/taken out of context? Actually, I'll make it simpler for you: please provide an instance of any man or woman in the suttas who were able to attain arahantship right in the immediate life that they killed their own parents?


Cool down santa clause it's Christmas time. lol :tongue:

Besides I just states a general concept in life you know. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception. Why not that apply to suttas because it is like anything else in life. There is this exception that some suttas are not correct and some mother-killing-hell-going scenarios are not captured in suttas. Are you telling me you cannot open your mind just a little bit to that possibility? :tongue:
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:09 pm

I'm totally cool so no worry.. :smile: By the way santa means peace in Pali, like we have our friend CittaSanto at our forum, meaning peaceful mind..

As said before, I'm all open for the possibility of mistranslation, but you can't just say this sutta or that sutta is corrupt without providing proof or evidence to back that up..
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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:13 pm

OK here's why. This sutta:

"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."


does NOT explicitly and 100% definitely talk about a hell as in a burning, tormenting place where you go after death. Why not this "hell" be a hell you experience in the mind? If I killed my mother, I would experience a lot of hell right in this own mind, for a long time too. That would make nibbana very very difficult to me. Meditation will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I cannot if I try, let it go and bring peace.
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:26 pm

BlueLotus wrote:OK here's why. This sutta:

"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."


does NOT explicitly and 100% definitely talk about a hell as in a burning, tormenting place where you go after death. Why not this "hell" be a hell you experience in the mind? If I killed my mother, I would experience a lot of hell right in this own mind, for a long time too. That would make nibbana very very difficult to me. Meditation will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I cannot if I try, let it go and bring peace.


Again, I keep saying that it's possible to let it go and have peace of mind. But attaining arahantship right in the immediate life after one's killed their own parents? Now that's a whole different story. By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..
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Re: About Kamma

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:22 pm

This may be helpful:

AN 3.99 wrote:"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.


---

santa100 wrote:By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..


I don't know why you want to focus on the immediate life; the whole discussion thus far has highlighted how kamma can ripen now, later, or thereafter.

I refer you to the story of the death of Maha Moggallana:

A heinous deed committed in days long past (by causing the death of his own parents) had not yet been expiated, and the ripening of that old Kamma confronted him now, just as others are suddenly confronted by a grave illness. Moggallana realized that he was now unable to escape.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:59 pm

I simply challenged the notion that it is possible for someone who killed his or her parents to attain nibbana right in their immediate life. AN 5.129 said it's not. Your quote on Ven. Moggallana (who did not kill his parents at the same life time of which he attained arahantship)is in accordance with Ven. Thanissaro's note in AN 5.129 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):
This discourse lists the five grave deeds that are said to prevent one's chances of attaining any of the noble attainments in this lifetime. People who commit them fall — immediately at the moment of death — into hell. No help from outside is able to mitigate the sufferings they will endure in hell, and thus they are said to be incurable. Only when the results of these deeds have worked themselves out will they be released from hell. Even if they return to the human plane, they will continue to suffer the consequences of their deeds. For example, Ven. Moggallana, one of the Buddha's foremost disciples, killed his parents many aeons ago, and the results of that deed pursued him even through his final lifetime, when he was beaten to death.
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Re: About Kamma

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:58 pm

santa100 wrote:Only when the results of these deeds have worked themselves out will they be released from hell.


Then how did Maha Moggallana attain arahantship, and only then have the final fruits of such an act come forth? He'd have needed to be released from hell to arise in the human realm, but couldn't have been released before the deeds were worked out in hell... and yet there he was in the human realm experiencing results which should have already been worked out in hell!

These sorts of problems occasionally crop up in the Nikayas; I suppose we can only do our best, and refrain from saying "only this is true, anything else is worthless", yes? It highlights the fact that the Nikayas reflect at least one hundred years of Buddhist thought, and not solely the ~40 years of the Buddha's dispensation. Textual conflict is bound to occur, in such a case.

:heart:
Last edited by daverupa on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:28 pm

Well, if we read Ven. Thanissaro's message carefully, he mentioned the results of killing one's own parents are so grave that not only one will have to pay for that in the lower realms (hell, animals, and hungry ghost), one still has to pay for it after s/he's made it to the human realm. The phrase "worked themselves out" is valid to the extent that it allows one to "be released from hell". But nowhere did it said it would totally exhaust all of one's remaining kamma, thus the tragic death of Ven. Moggallana even after he's made it to the human realm.

Again, I simply challenge the claim without saying only this or that is true. The sutta and Ven. T makes sense and there's no evidence of corruption to this particular sutta..
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Re: About Kamma

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:35 pm

It may be so, friend.

:shrug:

DN 2 wrote:"A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to kill my father — a righteous man, a righteous king — for the sake of sovereign rulership. May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

"Yes, great king, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to kill your father — a righteous man, a righteous king — for the sake of sovereign rulership. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession.


:jawdrop:

For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

When this was said, King Ajatasattu said to the Blessed One: "Well, then, lord, I am now taking leave. Many are my duties, many my responsibilities."

"Then do, great king, what you think it is now time to do."

So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.


No mention of hell here; no Dhamma Eye for such a one, however, at least on that occasion.

So fascinating, these Nikayas...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:47 pm

Ah, right there:
So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat.


Proved my point, no dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arisen, let alone arahantship right in his immediate life! "accept your confession"? yes; repentance? yes; some peace of mind? yes; arahantship in this very life? No!
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