About Kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: About Kamma

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:48 pm

santa100 wrote:Ah, right there:
So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat.


Proved my point, no dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arisen, let alone arahantship right in his immediate life! "accept your confession"? yes; repentance? yes; some peace of mind? yes; arahantship in this very life? No!


The sentence reads, "Had he not killed his father... the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."

Nothing about the rest of this life, and nothing about the next.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 pm

And he DID kill his father. That's the whole point. Nothing about the rest of this life, and nothing about the next? there's AN 5.129 for him to work on..

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:28 am

santa100 wrote:Again, I keep saying that it's possible to let it go and have peace of mind. But attaining arahantship right in the immediate life after one's killed their own parents? Now that's a whole different story.


That's the point. You make it a whole different story based on some sutta which do not say so with 100% certainty in the first place. You just have interpreted it the way you like and closed your mind completely to other possibility. It is possible the sutta talks about a mental hell a person experience after killing. It is possible the sutta talks about a psychological concept rather than a hell you are go after death.

santa100 wrote:By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..


I think I already answered this. We cannot expect suttas to cover all possible scenarios we find in life. Sometimes we can make a fair and calculated assumption. Regarding "who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother" I think a bulk of other suttas which say that a person who has developed the noble path can attain the highest fruit of that path is acceptable enough for me. Coupled with the fact that a serial killer like Angulimala who gruesomely killed many mothers attained nibbana too. But you are so hung on your own belief that "killing 1000 mothers is still not as bad as killing MY mother". What can I do? :thinking:

Also the sutta you pointed out does not say one having killed his own mother cannot attain nibbana in this life either. It just say he will be in major deprived state. This "deprived state" can very well be the mental agony he goes thorough rather than a burning hell world.

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
That's the point. You make it a whole different story based on some sutta which do not say so with 100% certainty in the first place. You just have interpreted it the way you like and closed your mind completely to other possibility. It is possible the sutta talks about a mental hell a person experience after killing. It is possible the sutta talks about a psychological concept rather than a hell you are go after death.


You're talking about yourself. I'm not the one who brushed aside what's taught in AN 5.129. The sutta message and Ven. Thanissaro's note couldn't be any more clear. You have not even answered my question about any evidence of folks who killed their parents AND attained arahantship in the same life time. You cherry-picked the idea about hell and assumed that it's strictly and exclusively a mental state. This is not a proof to conclude that AN 5.129 is false. So, until you've provided proof about the corruption of this sutta AND/OR evidence of just one single person in the entire Nikayas who was able to attain arahantship in the same lifetime that s/he killed his/her parents, there's no reason for anyone to believe in your claim that it is possible to attain arahantship in the same life time that one's just committed the heinous crimes. It's that simple.

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:49 pm

santa100 wrote:You're talking about yourself. I'm not the one who brushed aside what's taught in AN 5.129. The sutta message and Ven. Thanissaro's note couldn't be any more clear.


Ven. Thanissaro's note is just a commentary right? We don't have to take it as 100% the one and only interpretation.

santa100 wrote: You have not even answered my question about any evidence of folks who killed their parents AND attained arahantship in the same life time.


Suttas also don't say what will happen if I pee in my pants. lol... I donno man. How can I give you evidence that don't exist. The sutta don't cover all life scenarios. As I said we can make fair and calculated assumptions on some things based on a bulk of suttas rather than hang on a selected one or two and come to definitive conclusions.

santa100 wrote:You cherry-picked the idea about hell and assumed that it's strictly and exclusively a mental state.

oh No. Bo all means it is possible there is an actual hell a person goes to if he killed his mother. But it is similarly possible this "hell" is a "hell" in the mind. Mental hell is the worst kind of hell. ;)

santa100 wrote:This is not a proof to conclude that AN 5.129 is false. So, until you've provided proof about the corruption of this sutta AND/OR evidence of just one single person in the entire Nikayas who was able to attain arahantship in the same lifetime that s/he killed his/her parents, there's no reason for anyone to believe in your claim that it is possible to attain arahantship in the same life time that one's just committed the heinous crimes. It's that simple.


See the suttas don't ONLY say what you say. You can interpret those suttas in many other ways as well. Therefore, there is no need to ONLY believe that a person will definitely, without any reasonable doubt die, go to hell, suffer there, rearrise as a human and then only he can attain nibbana just because he killed his mother but the other guy killed 10,000 mothers, another 100,000 kids but didn't have to go to hell because he didn't kill his own mother. :P

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
Suttas also don't say what will happen if I pee in my pants. lol... I donno man. How can I give you evidence that don't exist. The sutta don't cover all life scenarios. As I said we can make fair and calculated assumptions on some things based on a bulk of suttas rather than hang on a selected one or two and come to definitive conclusions


Yes, provided that one's made "fair" and "calculated" assumptions. So far I've seen neither one..

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Re: About Kamma

Postby Digity » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:20 am

santa100 wrote:On the various consequences of unwholesome kamma, AN 8.040 might has helpful info.. ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )

You know what's funny? One of my biggest issues in the past has been my mouth and harsh speech. I imagine this is a trait I had in previous lives too. I also happen to have tinnitus in my left ear. So, my ear rings 24/7 and it was very annoying, but over the years I got use to it. However, the Buddha mentions:

"Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.


Coincidence?
Samsara sucks. #samvega

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:46 am

Hi Digity, interesting observation. The curious thing is why only the left side? It'd be great if the Great Teacher was still here to answer our questions. Anyway, tHe wiki page on tinnitus showed quite a bunch of different treatments for it. Any luck with any of them? Does it go away during meditation sessions?

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Re: About Kamma

Postby Digity » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:01 am

santa100 wrote:Hi Digity, interesting observation. The curious thing is why only the left side? It'd be great if the Great Teacher was still here to answer our questions. Anyway, tHe wiki page on tinnitus showed quite a bunch of different treatments for it. Any luck with any of them? Does it go away during meditation sessions?

I had a botched ear surgery in the left ear....that's how I got tinnitus...they damaged my ear drum during the surgery. Kamma? Maybe. :shrug:

I was very frustrated about it and I use to get so upset because it would bother me during my meditation (there's a post around here somewhere about that). However, I've gotten over it and don't even think about it much these days when I meditate.
Samsara sucks. #samvega

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:18 pm

santa100 wrote:Yes, provided that one's made "fair" and "calculated" assumptions. So far I've seen neither one..


Of course you have. But they just go right over your head as if you don't want to pay attention to them. One last time, here they are:

1) NO single sutta you gave specifically and certainly talk about an after death hell. They just mention a hell. You can interpret this "hell" many different ways. At least the "mental hell" is something we all can verify, we all have experienced right here. But I do not deny the possibility of after life hell either.

2) No sutta you gave specifically and certainly say a killer of his parent dies, goes to hell, suffers there, rearise as human and then only attains nibbana. They just say "festering in hell". Anyone can interpret this as psychological. The immense mental agony of a wrong doing is festering in hell. Guilt is festering in hell. Anger is festering in hell. This happens for a long time too. A killer of a mother is in a mentally very dark place. It will be very very hard for him to come out of that dark state and achieve something as sublime as nibbana in just a matter of few days or even years. This maybe why the suttas say "festering in hell". That does not mean an absolute certain hell world he goes after death. That is yet another possible way to interpret the sutta. That's all.

3) Sutta interpretations aside, we cannot also deny the overall message of a bulk of other suttas which say that nibbana is available to anyone following the 8-fold path to its maturity, without exception.

4) Angulimala is a man who killed many hundred mothers god knows how, removed their fingers (hopefully after they were dead), wore them around his neck. It was a gruesome blood bath. For a long time he terrorized villagers. Disturb human life. Small kid to old mothers were no exception to his killing. Yet somehow he found nibbana later in life. It is a pretty fair assumption to think that it is possible a person who killed a mother (or even a non-biological adopted mother) in a moment of careless anger can also find peace later in life. They both will suffer mental hell yet it is possible they can come out from those dark mental states later in life if they try.

Now if you look at these evidence and still think "he HAS to die and go to hell and come back and there is no other way than this way" then I am afraid you are "incurable". You have taken up a belief (which by the way is not even strongly and definitely supported by suttas) and you are clinging to that belief for your dear life. :shrug:

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:09 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
Of course you have. But they just go right over your head as if you don't want to pay attention to them


Again, you're talking about yourself. You cherry-picked what suited your ears and that's not getting you anywhere.

1) NO single sutta you gave specifically and certainly talk about an after death hell. They just mention a hell. You can interpret this "hell" many different ways. At least the "mental hell" is something we all can verify, we all have experienced right here. But I do not deny the possibility of after life hell either


It's always there, you simply completedly brushed it aside. For the last time, read Ven. T's note for AN 5.129 on the Five Heinous crimes:
"People who commit them fall — immediately at the moment of death — into hell. No help from outside is able to mitigate the sufferings they will endure in hell, and thus they are said to be incurable"


You've totally and completedly ignored the most important keyword in AN 5.129: "incurable". If someone who's committed a heinous crime and yet able to attain Nibbana right in that same lifetime according to your claim, this simply contradicted AN 5.129. Tell me exactly what that word in AN 5.129 means to you.

Now if you look at these evidence and still think "he HAS to die and go to hell and come back and there is no other way than this way" then I am afraid you are "incurable". You have taken up a belief (which by the way is not even strongly and definitely supported by suttas) and you are clinging to that belief for your dear life


Well, I'd question who's really incurable here. At least I paid attention to the word "incurable" while you've just completely brushed it aside..

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:24 am

santa100 wrote:Again, you're talking about yourself. You cherry-picked what suited your ears and that's not getting you anywhere.


Nope. Again, I am not denying the possibility of a life after death hell. It is just not the ONLY way to interpret suttas.

santa100 wrote:It's always there, you simply completedly brushed it aside. For the last time, read Ven. T's note for AN 5.129 on the Five Heinous crimes


For the last time, Ven. T's note is NOT the sutta. It is just another sutta commentary. Ven T's note is NOT the one and only way to interpret and explain the sutta.

santa100 wrote:You've totally and completedly ignored the most important keyword in AN 5.129: "incurable".


I have NOT totally and completely ignored the most important keyword in AN 5.129. The pali word Ven T translates as "incurable" is also translated elsewhere as "festering". Ven T has obviously picked the translation that is complementary to his view and his interpretation of the sutta. The reader should keep an open mind to the possibility that it may not be necessarily and completely correct. "Festering" is different than "incurable".

Here's another question for you, if you think the right translation is "incurable" then the word says that such a person is incapable of attaining nibbana whatsoever. There is no mention in the sutta "incurable in this life or incurable until his kamma is over". When you translate that pali word as "incurable" it sounds like "Never able to attain nibbana". Also, suttas say "intention is kamma". In that sense, Angulimala intended to kill his mother knowing well that was his mother. He intended to kill her, remove the fingers and wear them around his neck. :stirthepot:

santa100 wrote:At least I paid attention to the word "incurable"


Clearly not. Good luck with your blind belief man.

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:51 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
I have NOT totally and completely ignored the most important keyword in AN 5.129. The pali word Ven T translates as "incurable" is also translated elsewhere as "festering". Ven T has obviously picked the translation that is complementary to his view and his interpretation of the sutta. The reader should keep an open mind to the possibility that it may not be necessarily and completely correct. "Festering" is different than "incurable".


As usual, you've never supplied any backup evidence nor supporting literature. Without evidence, logic, reference, or supporting literature, why should anyone believe in your claim instead of what's said in the sutta and clarified by Ven. T ?

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:34 pm

santa100 wrote:As usual, you've never supplied any backup evidence nor supporting literature. Without evidence, logic, reference, or supporting literature, why should anyone believe in your claim instead of what's said in the sutta and clarified by Ven. T ?


Oh please! ;) I already gave you all the evidence and logic in the post two posts above. For supporting literature on how some translations say "festering" rather than "incurable" you can find online translation here in wisdom library source. I hear same is said in metta.lk but I could not find the sutta there.

Five kinds of persons who lie festering (parikuppa) in hell: those who kill mother, father, or arahant, maliciously draw blood from the Buddha, or create dissension in the Order. A.iii.146.


santa100 wrote:instead of what's said in the sutta and clarified by Ven. T ?


Forget Ven T man. He is just another commentator. Focus on the sutta. Please point out to me where in AN 5.129 does it mention a life-to-life hell? Where in AN 5.129 does it say that a killer of a parent dies and then goes to hell? Please quote the sutta directly or does your whole belief system hang on the translation of the pali word as "incurable"?

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:00 pm

The only thing you've been successful so far is to evade providing evidence and backup literature. Please cite the exact reference, link, or source of your finding. You still have not provided a single evidence of anyone who's committed the Five Grave crimes and able to attain Nibbana in their same life time, nor any evidence that the hell mentioned in AN 5.129 means a psychological/mental state. Until then, there's no reason to believe in your claim. It's that simple..

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:32 am

santa100 wrote:The only thing you've been successful so far is to evade providing evidence and backup literature. Please cite the exact reference, link, or source of your finding.


I already told you that we cannot expect every single life scenario covered in suttas. So stop asking for evidence that you know do not exist just so that you can say "see there is no evidence". I am not asking you to believe in psychological/mental states. I am confronting you because you keep denying that possibility and saying that a person who kills a mother surely and definitely will go to hell after death. Attaching strongly to beliefs is yet another attachment you need to let go of.

santa100 wrote: any evidence that the hell mentioned in AN 5.129 means a psychological/mental state.

My friend, AN 5.129 does not give any solid, definite evidence on either kind of interpretation. Both interpretations are just commentorial interpretations. Denying one and attaching to the other is pure dumb faith. Nothing more.

By the way, since you are so sure of after-life theory please quote the sutta and show me where a after-life-hell is mentioned. I am waiting. ;)

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:17 am

Bluelotus wrote:I already told you that we cannot expect every single life scenario covered in suttas. So stop asking for evidence that you know do not exist just so that you can say "see there is no evidence". I am not asking you to believe in psychological/mental states. I am confronting you because you keep denying that possibility and saying that a person who kills a mother surely and definitely will go to hell after death. Attaching strongly to beliefs is yet another attachment you need to let go of


Well, then stop making wild claims that you're unable to provide any evidence or backup literature. Because if you do, I will continue to challenge your claim which completely distorts the teaching of the Buddha.

My friend, AN 5.129 does not give any solid, definite evidence on either kind of interpretation. Both interpretations are just commentorial interpretations. Denying one and attaching to the other is pure dumb faith. Nothing more.

By the way, since you are so sure of after-life theory please quote the sutta and show me where a after-life-hell is mentioned. I am waiting.


My friend, I'd be happy to as long as you answer my question which you've been consistently evading. I'm still waiting for any reference or backup literature that backs up your claim that it's possible to attain Nibbana in the same lifetime that one committed the Five Heinous crimes. If not, that wouldn't be a dumb faith, it's a dumb claim..

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:52 am

santa100 wrote:Well, then stop making wild claims that you're unable to provide any evidence or backup literature. Because if you do, I will continue to challenge your claim which completely distorts the teaching of the Buddha.


There are no wild claims. My claim is that AN 5.129 does not explicitly state that anyone killing a parent is unable to attain nibbana in this life. That is just another interpretation to the sutta. Another interpretation is that "festering in hell" is just the mental agony he undergoes after killing. I have given you fair and calculated justification why both interpretations are possible; not just one single interpretation. It's as simple as that.

My friend, I'd be happy to as long as you answer my question which you've been consistently evading. I'm still waiting for any reference or backup literature that backs up your claim that it's possible to attain Nibbana in the same lifetime that one committed the Five Heinous crimes. If not, that wouldn't be a dumb faith, it's a dumb claim..


Of course it is dumb faith to believe Ven T's claim is the ONLY possible way to interpret AN 5.129. You keep asking for evidence. Dude, there is no sutta evidence to prove either claim. Anyone sticking to one favorite possibility is doing so due to sheer dump faith.

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Re: About Kamma

Postby santa100 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:38 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
Of course it is dumb faith to believe Ven T's claim is the ONLY possible way to interpret AN 5.129. You keep asking for evidence. Dude, there is no sutta evidence to prove either claim. Anyone sticking to one favorite possibility is doing so due to sheer dump faith


And obviously any claim without evidence or backup literature is a dumb claim. Dude, you've consistently failed to provide any proof or evidence to counter Ven. T's analysis. You claim what you do not prove.

Bluelotus wrote:
There are no wild claims. My claim is that AN 5.129 does not explicitly state that anyone killing a parent is unable to attain nibbana in this life. That is just another interpretation to the sutta. Another interpretation is that "festering in hell" is just the mental agony he undergoes after killing. I have given you fair and calculated justification why both interpretations are possible; not just one single interpretation. It's as simple as that.


Your observation is obviously false. You deliberately omitted the keyword "incurable" and tried to mix it up with the word "festering". Guess what, I looked up other sources and BOTH "incurable" and "festering" are there, just like Ven. T's translation. Here's the excerpt:

Monks, five are the lost in hell who lie festering, incurable. What five? By him has his mother been deprived of life; his father; an arahant; by him with evil thought, has the Tathagata's blood been drawn; by him has the Order been embroiled.

~~ "The Book of the Gradual Sayings" - F.L. Woodward(1960)" ~~

Again, this is perfectly consistent with Ven. T's version ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):

There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable.

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Re: About Kamma

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:02 pm

santa100 wrote:And obviously any claim without evidence or backup literature is a dumb claim. Dude, you've consistently failed to provide any proof or evidence to counter Ven. T's analysis. You claim what you do not prove.


By backup literature do you mean commentaries of some modern-day scholar monk? If so who cares? Ven T is yet another scholar who has given his own interpretation to the sutta. The sutta alone makes no vivid claim on an after-life hell. If you think it does, quote it.

santa100 wrote:Your observation is obviously false. You deliberately omitted the keyword "incurable" and tried to mix it up with the word "festering". Guess what, I looked up other sources and BOTH "incurable" and "festering" are there, just like Ven. T's translation. Here's the excerpt:


No omitting was made. Perhaps you should pay attention. I said, wisdom library translation here: http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/par ... index.html

Five kinds of persons who lie festering (parikuppa) in hell: those who kill mother, father, or arahant, maliciously draw blood from the Buddha, or create dissension in the Order. A.iii.146.


No mention of "incurable" there. I hear metta.lk has similar translation but I have not been able to find the sutta there. You have come up with some translators who agree with Ven T. Are you saying other sources are all wrong while only the sources you want to believe are right? Because that sounds pretty clingy to me. ;)

By the way, I don't want to deliberately omit anything just so that I can be right. If it is there it is there. If not then not. Lol.


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