Why does metta come before Upekkha?

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Alobha
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Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by Alobha »

Topic says it all. I've been investigating in Mahasi Sayadaw's and the Visuddhi Magga's point of view (which are pretty similar). The Buddha puts Metta in the forefront of the four Brahma Viharas, too.

I don't get why, because they are both distinct qualities and tools dealing with different fetters. As I see it, Metta is good against ill-will and Upekkha is good against Craving and clinging. From my understanding, Metta and Upekkha are thus not dealing with the same category of defilement (lobha vs dosa), so this really confuses me. What's the reason for the fixed sequence of the Brahma Viharas? One is certainly not meant to deal with anger before dealing with greed at all, right ?

The Visuddhi Magga says: "One who wants to develop equanimity must have already obtained the triple or quadruple jhána in loving-kindness, and so on. " but why does it say so? If Greed is a problem for a person, why does one have to bring Metta to the third jhana first and deal with anger, when this is a totally different point to work on compared to Upekkha, that is much more aimed at dealing with greed?

I'd like to train Upekkha more systematically, but as I understand it from the sources I've read, one is not meant to train Upekkha unless one achieved the third or four jhana in the other three Brahma Vihara. I don't know the reason for this. Why does one have to?
daverupa
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by daverupa »

Hmm... they don't really come "in an order" do they?

They are simply in a list; they are almost always found together when their practice is described, as I recall...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by mikenz66 »

Good question Alobha,

Clearly they are all linked, and they tend to balance and support each other. However, it does seem to me that metta is the most most basic and straight-forward to cultivate. The others involve identifying something specific about the "target" to be compassionate/joyful/equanimous about. Metta doesn't. You can't just be "compassionate about Smith", it has to be "compassionate about some issue that Smith has..." So it's a little trickier...

However, as you point out, the Visuddimagga is treating these as jhana practices. That's not the only way of to use them, and I suspect most people use them in a more low-key way.

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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by suttametta »

Dharma means the natural course of things. Why is not so import as how and when. When you experience three poisons, at that time, if you bring to mind loving kindness and compassion, then you will enter into gladness. With no three poisons present at that time, your mind naturally enters into equanimity. At that time the why is very apparent, because by the time of gladness, three poisons are already at least very weak. And in equanimity, one's jhana is stable enough to recognize the nature of perception and the enlightened state.
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DAWN
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by DAWN »

Because Metta is a relative quality, and Upekkha is an absolute quality.

Upekkha = Metta + Panna (wisdom).

Mirrow is endowed by Upekkha - he dont modify (tuch/self identify with) what is reflected (Panna) , he let reflected be what it is (Metta).
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santa100
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by santa100 »

Vsm offered 2 explanations in the subsequent paragraphs:

VsmIX.109: (metta is practiced first as promotion of welfare of other beings):
One who wants to develop these four should practice them towards beings
first as the promotion of the aspect of welfare—and loving-kindness has the
promotion of the aspect of welfare as its characteristic; and next, on seeing or
hearing or judging
16
that beings whose welfare has been thus wished for are at
the mercy of suffering, they should be practiced as the promotion of the aspect of
the removal of suffering—and compassion has the promotion of the aspect of
the removal of suffering as its characteristic; and then, on seeing the success of
those whose welfare has been wished for and the removal of whose suffering
has been wished for, they should be practiced as being glad—and gladness has
the act of gladdening as its characteristic; but after that there is nothing to be
done and so they should be practiced as the neutral aspect, in other words, the
state of an onlooker—and equanimity has the promotion of the aspect of
neutrality as its characteristic; therefore, since their respective aims are the aspect
of welfare, etc., their order should be understood to correspond, with lovingkindness stated first, then compassion, gladness and equanimity
VsmIX.111: (mapped to the order of the fourfold/fivefold jhanas)
Though they have a single characteristic in having a measureless scope,
yet the first three are only of triple and quadruple jhána [respectively in the
fourfold and fivefold reckonings]. Why? Because they are not dissociated from joy. But why are their aims not dissociated from joy? Because they are the escape
from ill will, etc., which are originated by grief. But the last one belongs only to
the remaining single jhána. Why? Because it is associated with equanimous
feeling. For the divine abiding of equanimity that occurs in the aspect of neutrality
towards beings does not exist apart from equanimous [that is to say, neitherpainful-nor-pleasant] feeling
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DAWN
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by DAWN »

If take a similie:

Metta is when you take a shovel to clean the surface of the mind
Panna is when you take a broom to clean the surface of the mind
Upekkha is when you take breath and shawl to polish the surface of the mind
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pegembara
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by pegembara »

Another simile to show the gradual development in sequence:

A mother is not only born with the child she brings forth, she
also grows up with the child she brings up. Her growth is in terms of
the other three Divine Abidings or Brahma Vihara- compassion,
sympathetic joy and equanimity. In bringing up her child, some-
times a mother has to be stern and tactful. Her soft tender love
matures into a compassionate sternness, when the child is pass-
ing through the unruly boyhood and reckless adolescence. But
that hardness of her heart melts at the correct moment, like
butter.

The child has now reached manhood. He can stand on his
own feet with enviable self-confidence. The mother also grows
up with sympathetic joy enjoying the fruits of her labours. Her com-
placence, like curd, is serene and has nothing meddlesome about it.
The bringing forth and the bringing-up is over. The time comes
now to let go - of the attachments and involvements regarding
the child. But for that separation too, the mother, now mature
in her experience, is fully prepared with equanimity. Like a pot
of ghee, she is not easily upset.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Alobha
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by Alobha »

pegembara wrote:Another simile to show the gradual development in sequence:

A mother is not only born with the child she brings forth, she
also grows up with the child she brings up. Her growth is in terms of
the other three Divine Abidings or Brahma Vihara- compassion,
sympathetic joy and equanimity. In bringing up her child, some-
times a mother has to be stern and tactful. Her soft tender love
matures into a compassionate sternness, when the child is pass-
ing through the unruly boyhood and reckless adolescence. But
that hardness of her heart melts at the correct moment, like
butter.

The child has now reached manhood. He can stand on his
own feet with enviable self-confidence. The mother also grows
up with sympathetic joy enjoying the fruits of her labours. Her com-
placence, like curd, is serene and has nothing meddlesome about it.
The bringing forth and the bringing-up is over. The time comes
now to let go - of the attachments and involvements regarding
the child. But for that separation too, the mother, now mature
in her experience, is fully prepared with equanimity. Like a pot
of ghee, she is not easily upset.
Yes. I'd agree with that, ie that it depends on the time and circumstances which of the Brahmaviharas is the most skillful to apply. This stands in contrast to how the Brahmaviharas should be practiced according to the Visuddhi Magga, where the qualities are practiced out of context.

daverupa wrote:Hmm... they don't really come "in an order" do they?

They are simply in a list; they are almost always found together when their practice is described, as I recall...
Did the Buddha teach lists in random order, without intention on how the order is listed or did he teach with intention on what he says first and what he says after that?
There is a clear order, starting with Metta as the most important.
See It 27: "Monks, whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the liberation of mind by loving-kindness. The liberation of mind by loving-kindness surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant."

However, look at the near- and far-enemies of each distinct Brahmavihara like here:
Image

Let me rephrase the question:
If it's not about merit, but about the fetters, then what's the order?
Is Metta the no1 when one wants to deal with craving and clining or is Upekkha the first choice?
Vice versa, isn't Metta only the no1 when when dealing with ill will, meaning that for different enemies, a different Brahma Vihara should be given priority in cultivation?
I for example would, right now, profit more from cultivating Upekkha but it doesn't look like I'm meant to develop this Brahma Vihara before reaching the third jhana in the other three. And I wonder why, assuming that each Brahma Vihara is not equal in it's effectivity against every fetter. Is that a wrong assumption? Is metta the best against every fetter and the other three Brahma Viharas are hierarchically inferior to Metta in every aspect?
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

In this sutta the Buddha advises that the practice of metta and other brahmaviharas should be taken from the first to the fourth jhana. Specificaly, it recomends practicing equanimity from the first to the 4th jhana, proving that the Visudhimagga is wrong.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, just as metta can be felt during 4th jhana, upekha can be felt during 1st jhana. The Visuddhimagga has a very rigid (and wrong) classification of the jhanas.

Furthermore, In the most systematised way the Buddha taught the entire path, which is found in the Mahaparinibbana sutta, of the 37 things to develop to attain enlightenment, there is only direct mentioning of one brahmavihara: equanimity. Aditionaly, development of each brahmavihara leads to rebirth among the brahmas, and equanimity leads to rebirth among the highest brahmas.

Thus equanimity is the most important brahmavihara.

And, of course, if craving is your biggest problem, then you should apply equanimity and not develop metta then karuna, then mudita and only then upekha. It's self evident, imo.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Assaji
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Alobha,
Alobha wrote:What's the reason for the fixed sequence of the Brahma Viharas?
This is explained in Vimuttimagga, page 193.
http://archive.org/details/ArahantUpato ... reedom.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes,
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Tex
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by Tex »

A poster on the old black and gold site once analogized the Brahma Viharas as four beams placed on the ground with the bases forming the corners of a square, with all of the beams leaning inward to form a point at the top, like the skeleton of a pyramid. In this way, each one supports all of the others and is supported by all of the others.

I don't think the Brahma Viharas are intended to be practiced in order any more than the Eightfold Path is. I think the idea is to develop all parts simultaneously, as much as one is able. But I've been wrong before.
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by SarathW »

There are many categories in Dhamma teaching. I see them as different paths. They all are aim towards one goal “Nirvana”
If you can understand and experience one category you will understand all. That could be the reason why, that we chose one meditation object, when we meditate.

To see various categories please refer to the following link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by Cittasanto »

One possibility is that we need to gladden the mind before balancing it.
but the reverse could be true also.
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Re: Why does metta come before Upekkha?

Post by DAWN »

SarathW wrote:There are many categories in Dhamma teaching. I see them as different paths. They all are aim towards one goal “Nirvana”
If you can understand and experience one category you will understand all. That could be the reason why, that we chose one meditation object, when we meditate.

To see various categories please refer to the following link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is one path in end of suffering - dispassion.
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