Moderator: Mahavihara moderator
Ben wrote:Hi all
Just a reminder that in answering this question, please provide evidence exclusively from the suttas.
"And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
Chris wrote:I wonder if someone can clarify this for me please - what is the scriptural
basis for instantaneous rebirth? Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the
The perceiving of impermanence, bhikkhus, developed and frequently practiced, removes all sensual passion, removes all passion for material existence, removes all passion for becoming, removes all ignorance, removes and abolishes all conceit of "I am."
— SN 22.102
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance, Vaccha, and not of one without sustenance.
Just as a fire burns with sustenance and not without sustenance, even so I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance and not of one without sustenance."
"But, Master Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time."
"And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Chris wrote:I'd be interested in your thoughts after reading this:
Is Rebirth Immediate - A Study of Canonical Sources ~ Piya Tan
Dhammanando wrote:In conventional truth a gandhabba is a being who has just passed away with ignorance and craving unextinguished, and who is propelled by kamma to the ovum as it's being fertilized.
Dhammanando wrote:... the Theravada rejected the idea of an intermediate state at the Council of Patali.
Dhammanando wrote:... in the schools that teach the intermediate state, the being in this state is said to have all the aggregates.
Dhammanando wrote:I would say that conventional speech is not really adequate for describing the mechanism of rebirth, beyond the bare suttaic account of mum, dad and gandhabba. For more detail than that we need to frame the question and answer in abhidhammic terms.
... isn't likely to be found. But it appears the khandas would be understood to be already present if one takes a gandhabba as an intermediate being. The khandas already would be taken up, so the suttas interpreted that way would seem to support the instantaneous understanding. Unless I'm missing something here (and please let me know if that's the case!).Chris wrote:I am specifically wanting to see where the Buddha clearly taught in the Suttas, that, on the death of the physical body, the taking up of another set of khandas is instantaneous.
Jechbi wrote:(p.s., where is Bhante these days?)
Is immediate rebirth mentioned anywhere in the Sutta Pitaka?
Ben wrote:Basically, Bhante says that there