We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

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We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby alan » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:04 am

I'm astonished to see any argument otherwise. Where would we be without them?
You don't have to revere them, but if you are a Buddhist, everything you know, or think you know, comes from the original teachings. We can argue about points, we can disagree about how best to practice. But we all owe a debt of gratitude to the Buddha for teaching. Where best to find that? In the suttas, of course. They are the best representation of his teachings, and you should read them.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:39 am

So true!

The Buddha attained enlightenment not just as an arahant, but as a samma-sam-buddha, who rediscovers the Dhamma. There is no need for each of us to reinvent the wheel, we have the guidelines and the map already lined out; it is up to us to follow the path as described in this guide. For example, there are some who say that Suttas / scripture is not important, that it is all allegory and meditation practice is all you need to discover the truth through your own "intuitions." If everyone had to start from scratch with no guideline whatsoever, there would be as many different versions of Buddhism as there are Buddhists. And no one would know which one is correct and which one is just another deluded person / path.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby polarbuddha101 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:01 am

I agree, buddhism would be effectively nothing without the suttas. Even though there seems to be some interpolation in the suttas according to scholars, I think that they are damn good proof of a historical Gotama now known as the buddha who taught the 8 fold path, 4 noble truths, dependent origination, etc.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Kusala » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:53 am

alan wrote:I'm astonished to see any argument otherwise. Where would we be without them?
You don't have to revere them, but if you are a Buddhist, everything you know, or think you know, comes from the original teachings. We can argue about points, we can disagree about how best to practice. But we all owe a debt of gratitude to the Buddha for teaching. Where best to find that? In the suttas, of course. They are the best representation of his teachings, and you should read them.


Amen! Oh wait, Sadhu! The more I read the suttas, the more I realize just how timeless the Dhamma is...the Buddha once said, "One who sees the Dhamma sees me. One who sees me sees the Dhamma." :anjali:
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Mr Man » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:14 am

I think we have a false premise, Is this what your saying "What we know about what is "in" the suttas is "in" the suttas"?

To me "owe a debt of gratitude" is rather an odd idium. I can relate to it on a personal leval but wouldn't want to impose it on to others.

I see the Buddha and Suttas as a starting point and souce (of this dispensation) but not the end. The dhamma is something that moves through time with the Sangha; contemporary teachers and scholars are what make it accessible.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:58 am

Mr Man wrote:I see the Buddha and Suttas as a starting point and souce (of this dispensation) but not the end. The dhamma is something that moves through time with the Sangha; contemporary teachers and scholars are what make it accessible.


Though contemporary expressions are just as much a product of time and place as were the many previous expressions through history. So it all gets very subjective, and the suttas are a useful reference.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:01 am

David N. Snyder wrote:For example, there are some who say that Suttas / scripture is not important, that it is all allegory and meditation practice is all you need to discover the truth through your own "intuitions."


I agree. I don't see this as a reliable approach atall because the taints and self-view are very deeply ingrained and it's easy to delude ourselves.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:31 pm

alan wrote:We all owe a debt of gratitude to the Buddha for teaching.

Where in the suttas did the Buddha teach that we all (I presume you mean Buddhists?) owe him a debt of gratitude for anything?
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:21 pm

danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:We all owe a debt of gratitude to the Buddha for teaching.

Where in the suttas did the Buddha teach that we all (I presume you mean Buddhists?) owe him a debt of gratitude for anything?


DanieLion, why can't you agree on anything? :tongue:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby cooran » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:58 pm

Hello all,

Some of what the Buddha alluded to about Gratitude to himself is mentioned here:

The Lessons of Gratitude
At the same time, the example of your behavior and freedom of mind is a gift to others, in that it shows how they, too, can free themselves from their debts. This is why the Buddha said that only those who have attained full awakening eat the alms food of the country without incurring debt. They've even paid off their debt to the Buddha for having taught the way to release. As he said, the only homage he requested was that people practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma — i.e., to develop the disenchantment and dispassion that lead to release (DN 16; SN 22.39-42) — so that the world will not be empty of awakened people. In this way, attaining full release is not a selfish act; instead, it's the highest expression of kindness and gratitude.

Of course, it's a rare person who will take this route to freedom, but that doesn't lessen its value or relevance. As with gratitude and benefaction, it's an opportunity to become rare and distinctive that's open to anyone with the discernment to appreciate it and the determination to become truly kind and debt-free
.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... itude.html

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---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Kusala » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:50 pm

Mr Man wrote:I think we have a false premise, Is this what your saying "What we know about what is "in" the suttas is "in" the suttas"?

To me "owe a debt of gratitude" is rather an odd idium. I can relate to it on a personal leval but wouldn't want to impose it on to others.

I see the Buddha and Suttas as a starting point and souce (of this dispensation) but not the end. The dhamma is something that moves through time with the Sangha; contemporary teachers and scholars are what make it accessible.





"The Buddha foresaw that people would introduce what he called “synthetic Dhamma”—and when that happened, he said, the true Dhamma would
disappear (SN 16:13).

He compared the process to what happens when a wooden drum develops a crack, into which a peg is inserted, and then another crack, into which another peg is inserted, and so on until nothing is left of the original drum-body. All that remains is a mass of pegs, which cannot come near to producing the sound of the original drum (SN 20:7)."
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Mr Man » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:55 pm

Kusala wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I think we have a false premise, Is this what your saying "What we know about what is "in" the suttas is "in" the suttas"?

To me "owe a debt of gratitude" is rather an odd idium. I can relate to it on a personal leval but wouldn't want to impose it on to others.

I see the Buddha and Suttas as a starting point and souce (of this dispensation) but not the end. The dhamma is something that moves through time with the Sangha; contemporary teachers and scholars are what make it accessible.





"The Buddha foresaw that people would introduce what he called “synthetic Dhamma”—and when that happened, he said, the true Dhamma would
disappear (SN 16:13).

He compared the process to what happens when a wooden drum develops a crack, into which a peg is inserted, and then another crack, into which another peg is inserted, and so on until nothing is left of the original drum-body. All that remains is a mass of pegs, which cannot come near to producing the sound of the original drum (SN 20:7)."





Hi Kusala, I'm not exactly sure what your point is here. Or the conection between your post and what you have highlighted from my post. I'm also if your post is a quote or your own words.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Kusala » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:30 am

Mr Man wrote:
Kusala wrote:
Mr Man wrote:I think we have a false premise, Is this what your saying "What we know about what is "in" the suttas is "in" the suttas"?

To me "owe a debt of gratitude" is rather an odd idium. I can relate to it on a personal leval but wouldn't want to impose it on to others.

I see the Buddha and Suttas as a starting point and souce (of this dispensation) but not the end. The dhamma is something that moves through time with the Sangha; contemporary teachers and scholars are what make it accessible.





"The Buddha foresaw that people would introduce what he called “synthetic Dhamma”—and when that happened, he said, the true Dhamma would
disappear (SN 16:13).

He compared the process to what happens when a wooden drum develops a crack, into which a peg is inserted, and then another crack, into which another peg is inserted, and so on until nothing is left of the original drum-body. All that remains is a mass of pegs, which cannot come near to producing the sound of the original drum (SN 20:7)."





Hi Kusala, I'm not exactly sure what your point is here. Or the conection between your post and what you have highlighted from my post. I'm also if your post is a quote or your own words.


Hey Mr. Man, I'm of the opinion that man has a tendency to corrupt things and the Dhamma is no exception. The suttas are the closet thing to the Buddha and Dhamma.
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:54 am

I'm sorry, Mr. Man, but I don't get what you are trying to say. Since it appears English is not your first language, maybe in the future you'll take more time thinking about how best to express your opinions.
For instance, you would be well advised to research the idea of "false premise".
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:48 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:We all owe a debt of gratitude to the Buddha for teaching.

Where in the suttas did the Buddha teach that we all (I presume you mean Buddhists?) owe him a debt of gratitude for anything?


DanieLion, why can't you agree on anything? :tongue:

:rofl:
I ask my selves that all the time.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:30 am

alan wrote:I'm sorry, Mr. Man, but I don't get what you are trying to say. Since it appears English is not your first language, maybe in the future you'll take more time thinking about how best to express your opinions.
For instance, you would be well advised to research the idea of "false premise".

Why the OP is a false premise is because no one gave an "argument otherwise" which caused your "astonishment". Should I also research "cheap shot"?
Last edited by Mr Man on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:53 am

Kusala wrote:



Hey Mr. Man, I'm of the opinion that man has a tendency to corrupt things and the Dhamma is no exception. The suttas are the closet thing to the Buddha and Dhamma.


I agree that over time things will eventually change and then pass away however in practical terms contemporary teachers are of great benefit - essential even. In my opinion the Buddha and Dhamma is still being manifest through the Sangha.
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:10 pm

Mr Man wrote:I agree that over time things will eventually change and then pass away however in practical terms contemporary teachers are of great benefit - essential even.


I can see your point, but I also think "contemporary" has it's limitations.
A modern observer might say: "As Buddhism established itself in Tibet in the 8th century it was heavily influenced by the Bon religion." But similarly an observer a few hundred years hence might say: "As Buddhism established itself in the developed world in the 21st century it was heavily influenced by western materialism."
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby alan » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:46 am

So we all agree that reading the suttas is important? Great. And we all agree that the suttas are the basis of all teachings. And I won't hear any disagreements, right?
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Re: We know about the Dhamma because of the suttas.

Postby alan » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:09 am

All too often I see people abandon reason when the "get religion". Don't let this happen to you, friends.
Reason can be your best friend in a confusing world. Use it. How best to be a reasonable person who is into Buddhism? By reading the suttas, and practicing. Understanding the basics is essential.
How do you learn the basics? By reading the suttas.
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