Fear of Wrongdoing

[convivium]

Problematic or essential? Both?

[Ben]

Its merely an artefact of practice, when practice is going well.
Hiri and Otapa manifest naturally - without effort.

Traditionally, the way one can tell an ariya is through his or her conduct.
When one becomes a sotapanna, sila is from then on pure.

[convivium]

The Buddha points to two mental qualities as the underlying safeguards of morality, thus as the protectors of both the individual and society as a whole. These two qualities are called in Pali hiri and ottappa. Hiri is an innate sense of shame over moral transgression; ottappa is moral dread, fear of the results of wrongdoing. The Buddha calls these two states the bright guardians of the world (sukka lokapala). He gives them this designation because as long as these two states prevail in people's hearts the moral standards of the world remain intact, while when their influence wanes the human world falls into unabashed promiscuity and violence, becoming almost indistinguishable from the animal realm (Itiv. 42) (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_23.html).

[Digity]

Problematic or essential? Both?

Essential. How is fear of wrongdoing problematic?

[danieLion]

You have to make a distinction between feeling ashamed about yourself and ashamed about particular actions. Remember Rahula was a member of the noble warrior caste. If anybody had a sense of pride it would be that caste. And they also had the strongest sense of shame, that certain acts were not up to their standards. And so you're not dumping on yourself because you're a bad person but saying "I made a mistake. That is not up to my standards." So it that case the shame is not debilitating. It actually helps you to reflect on what you did wrong.

From: Iddhipada: The Bases For Success (Part 2)

See also:
Ottappa

[DAWN]

Ben

Is SN Buddha said that fear of wrong doing, or shame is good sign. But it's just a sign. The one have to use his wisdom and practice to heal it.

In medecine, often, the problem is not to heal the illness, but find exactly what to heal. One member of my family died, because the illness was identifyed wrongly.

Actualy, this consciosness of wrong doing is good.
Why?
Because is the sign that you and wrong doing are different, there is difference between you and wrong doing, separation. Due to this separation - consciosness arise.
It seems to me that every practitioner, was be afraid of wrong doing.

Best wishes.

[Ben]

Ben

Thanks! and - to you too!
with metta,

Ben

[convivium]

Consider the following example of how these things might be more then just "signposts" or manifestations of "practice": If I am about to do something impulsively that I've done 10,000 times before, I could bring to mind the results of the action (whether intuitively or contemplatively) and cultivate a sense of fear that they happen again. This would cut that impulsion short. In this context, fear becomes a catalyst for Wisdom and concentration by way of strengthening one's Sila. Fear is a base emotion that operates at the same frequency (to use a metaphor) of base passions. I'm not a psychologist but it seems like an intuitive principle of conditioning. If you give me a cookie (the products of sila), then i'll do something. Or, if you make me terrified of the tazor (hiri and ottapa), then I won't do something. That Thanissaro talk is useful, as most of his talks are. thanks everyone

[Ben]

Thanks for raising that issue, convivium.
Some words don't translate well. 'Moral Shame', 'Fear of Wrongdoing', 'Revulsion of Nutriment', 'Knowledge of Terror' seem to be at odds with calm, insight and equanimity one normally associates with Buddhist practice. However, the affective experience is not rooted in aversion or some other gross mind state, but equanimity and insight.
kind regards,

Ben

[convivium]

However, the affective experience is not rooted in aversion or some other gross mind state, but equanimity and insight.

Could you explain this sentence further? Thanks for your consideration!

[Ben]

I'm not sure whether there is anything I can add - I'm speaking partly from my own experience.
Moral Shame and Fear of Wrongdoing are not just intellectual exercises in linking cause and probable effect.
They are, like samvega, wholesome artefacts that arise when you begin to penetrate the nature of nama and rupa.
They also protect as one continues to practice.
kind regards,

Ben

[DAWN]

M. Walshe.DN16 Mahaparinibbana sutta

I will tel you another seven things conducive to wellfare... As long as monks continue with faith, with modesty, with fear of doing wrong, with learning, with aroused vigour, with established mindfulness, with wisdom...