jhana among Western converts

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tiltbillings
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jhana among Western converts

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:41 pm

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:48 pm

File not found
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:24 pm

It should now be available. It comes from this site:

http://www.shin-ibs.edu/
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jhana_convert.pdf
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:06 pm

Thanks for the article Tilt, it was interesting. Seems like it covers the jhana spectrum and viewpoints pretty well.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby Ben » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:28 pm

Thanks Tilt.
I look forward to reading it - especially now after having done with that damn book about the zombie apocolypse.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby Sylvester » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:38 am

Something from Ven Analayo's summer lectures on the Chinese Madhyama Agama -

http://lecture2go.uni-hamburg.de/verans ... /-/v/12279

He goes into the issue from the 11th minute...

Quite funny.

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby daverupa » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:22 pm

Sylvester wrote:Something from Ven Analayo's summer lectures on the Chinese Madhyama Agama -

http://lecture2go.uni-hamburg.de/verans ... /-/v/12279

He goes into the issue from the 11th minute...

Quite funny.


I was disheartened when his Comparative Analysis of the MN failed to even mention the possibility that the Bodhisatta discovered jhana. It seems accounting for the Bodhisatta having it 'must' be accounted for with reference to his status as a Bodhisatta, but this is rather ad hoc and (nearly?) begs the question.

Isn't it simpler to posit that first jhana was discovered under the rose-apple tree & that only later was its possible efficacy recognized, whereupon the four jhanas were the foundation of subsequent exploration and development at Uruvela?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby Sylvester » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:55 am

I think he attempts to explain the meaning of abuddhi in SN 2.7, and yet reconcile it with the presence of other passages suggesting that jhāna already pre-dated the Buddha. Looking at the verse in SN 2.7, there appears to be 2 variant readings to the jhānamabujjha, which leaves some uncertainty as to what exactly was meant by the verse. There's the possibility that BB's translation of the compound could be correct (abujjha as the aorist of bujjhati), but Ven T could also be correct as treating the abujjha as a past participle. Tricky issue...

PS - I have not heard this from the horse's mouth, but I hear from someone who cited someone's testimony that Ajahn Brahm has changed his mind about the practice of jhāna prior to the Bodhisatta. :stirthepot:
Last edited by Sylvester on Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:28 am

Sylvester wrote:PS - I have not heard this from the horse's mouth, but I hear from someone who cited someone's testimony that Ajahn Brahm has changed his mind about the practice of jhāna prior to the Bodhisatta. :stirthepot:


It is kind of hard to hear with the not so good audio in my video, but Ajahn Brahm answers my question at around the 2:40 mark that one can only reach the arūpa jhanas / realms by first going through the four rūpa jhanas. And therefore, Udaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama must have attained the rūpa jhanas, although Ajahn Brahm implies their experience and attainment may have been "jhana-lite" or not as correct as the jhanas as taught by the Buddha.


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Re: jhana among Western converts

Postby Sylvester » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:43 am

Hopefully, I'll be able to consult Ajahn Brahmali next week and see if the reported hearsay was accurate. The sense I got was that AB may be thinking of the presence or absence of Right View as the crux of the difference.


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