the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

porpoise wrote:In the suttas the realms are generally discussed in terms of beings being reborn in different destinations according to their actions, ie kamma - so I'd agree that they can be seen as a morality teaching.
However I haven't seen any evidence in the suttas of the realms being portrayed as psychological states - if you can come up with any examples I'd be interested to see them.
I think the suttas talk about birth (jhati/bhava) or repeated births (punarbhava) according to kamma rather than rebirth as in life-to-life births. The whole life to life concept is just one way of interpretation just like the other concept.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Spiny Norman »

BlueLotus wrote:
porpoise wrote:In the suttas the realms are generally discussed in terms of beings being reborn in different destinations according to their actions, ie kamma - so I'd agree that they can be seen as a morality teaching.
However I haven't seen any evidence in the suttas of the realms being portrayed as psychological states - if you can come up with any examples I'd be interested to see them.
I think the suttas talk about birth (jhati/bhava) or repeated births (punarbhava) according to kamma rather than rebirth as in life-to-life births. The whole life to life concept is just one way of interpretation just like the other concept.
Not if we're discussing dependent origination, because the nidanas of DO are defined in a specific way - see MN9 and SN12.2, where birth and death are defined straightforwardly as physical events, and where bhava is defined as existence in the 3 realms. The way the nidanas are defined simply doesn't support a psychological interpretation of DO or the realms.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Spiny Norman »

seeker242 wrote:I see no reason to doubt that it should be taken literally. Some people say it should be taken literally. Some people say it should be taken metaphorically. As if the two are mutually exclusive. I think both would be the most accurate!
There are many ways to classify mental states, but the correct approach is described in the Satipatthana Sutta. Sure, you can classify mental states using the realms, but they weren't designed or intended for this purpose and it seems to me like muddled thinking - or an aversion to cosmology in the suttas?
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

porpoise wrote:Not if we're discussing dependent origination, because the nidanas of DO are defined in a specific way - see MN9 and SN12.2, where birth and death are defined straightforwardly as physical events, and where bhava is defined as existence in the 3 realms. The way the nidanas are defined simply doesn't support a psychological interpretation of DO or the realms.
Most sutta on DO I have read does not define birth as some physical thing. From MN 9
When the noble disciple knows demerit and roots of demerit, merit and roots of merit, he gives up all latent tendencies to greed, drives out all latent tendencies to aversion, and completly destroying the latent tendency to measure as `I be', dispels ignorance, arouses science, and here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.
The sutta's overall message of MN 9 is that birth/bhava is "the tendency to measure as 'I be'".
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Spiny Norman »

BlueLotus wrote:Most sutta on DO I have read does not define birth as some physical thing.
Here's how ageing and death and birth are defined in MN9 ( and SN12.2 ) - these descriptions seem unambiguous to me:

Aging and Death
22. "And what is aging and death, what is the origin of aging and death, what is the cessation of aging and death, what is the way leading to the cessation of aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, grayness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties — this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body — this is called death. So this aging and this death are what is called aging and death.
Birth
26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth.
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daverupa
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by daverupa »

It doesn't really bear on hell and ghost realms, though. Analysis and comprehension of paticcasamuppada isn't tied to cosmology.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Nyana »

BlueLotus wrote:Most sutta on DO I have read does not define birth as some physical thing.
Not only is this interpretation not supported by the suttas, without the view that consciousness continues post-mortem to another birth in one of the realms of saṃsāra the dhammavinaya becomes untenable as a meaningful way to live one's life and something akin to Epicureanism would be far more reasonable.
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote: without the view that consciousness continues post-mortem to another birth in one of the realms of saṃsāra the dhammavinaya becomes untenable as a meaningful way to live one's life
This might be worth taking up elsewhere; or, we can note it simply as your opinion.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:It doesn't really bear on hell and ghost realms, though.
Yes, it's gone a bit off-topic, but I think the issue is the same - whether it's valid to impose a psychological interpretation on something which looks like a cosmological description.
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Nyana
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: without the view that consciousness continues post-mortem to another birth in one of the realms of saṃsāra the dhammavinaya becomes untenable as a meaningful way to live one's life
This might be worth taking up elsewhere; or, we can note it simply as your opinion.
Feel free to start a new thread if you like.

I'm not sure how much I care to add but it's usually interesting to hear what you and others think.
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

porpoise wrote: Here's how ageing and death and birth are defined in MN9 ( and SN12.2 ) - these descriptions seem unambiguous to me:
Rather than taking parts of the sutta at face value, take the sutta as a whole. These writings came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand for many years so we can assume that certain parts are chanted over and over again in repeated patterns. So we can expect certain phrases to repeat in suttas. Taking the holistic meaning of MN 9, bhava is the tendency of the mind to measure as "I be". By eliminating this, you eliminate suffering in the here and now.

Besides SN 12.2/MN 9 doesn't define birth strictly within the constraints of a physical phenomena at all. The womb is translator's addition. That is why it is within brackets. There is no mention of a womb in the pali.
Last edited by BlueLotus on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

Ñāṇa wrote: Not only is this interpretation not supported by the suttas
Which interpretation is that?
Ñāṇa wrote: consciousness continues post-mortem to another birth in one of the realms of saṃsāra the dhammavinaya becomes untenable as a meaningful way to live one's life and something akin to Epicureanism would be far more reasonable.
Dhamma is applicable to end suffering. If there are arahaths who follow the dhamma, end suffering and live peaceful lives till death, then dhamma is tenable as a meaningful way to live one's life whether consciousness continues post-mortem or not.
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

porpoise wrote: I think the issue is the same - whether it's valid to impose a psychological interpretation on something which looks like a cosmological description.
Few things:
1. Suttas are not explicit on a cosmological description anymore than a psychological description. Only some commentaries are.
2. Be open-minded to the possibility that 2500 years ago certain words might not have been used in the same context they are used in the modern-day and age. So there is no need to hear a child crying every time it says birth. ;)
Nyana
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Nyana »

BlueLotus wrote:Which interpretation is that?
The interpretation where "birth" doesn't refer to literal birth.
Ñāṇa wrote:Dhamma is applicable to end suffering. If there are arahaths who follow the dhamma, end suffering and live peaceful lives till death, then dhamma is tenable as a meaningful way to live one's life whether consciousness continues post-mortem or not.
If the consequences of craving doesn't include continued birth and death in saṃsāra then it would be far more reasonable to engage in a life of moderate pleasures than to live a life of ascetic renunciation according to the dhammavinaya.
daverupa
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:If the consequences of craving doesn't include continued birth and death in saṃsāra then it would be far more reasonable to engage in a life of moderate pleasures than to live a life of ascetic renunciation according to the dhammavinaya.
If agnostic approaches to post-death states are undertaken, all that is left is this world here and now, and one is left with Buddha's Wager as given to Pāṭaliya in the Sutta in my signature. This is a perfectly reasonable alternative to your insistence that a certain belief is necessary.

In any of these cosmological discussions which are in the Nikayas, what matters is cause and effect & moral efficacy (sometimes also, not adhering to view).

I don't want to argue the presence or absence, the literal or metaphorical readings here - at least one hundred years of doctrinal development are reflected in the Nikayas, and all sorts of things are in there (don't worry, I'm not going to get all "pristine Ur-Canon" on you); I just don't want there to be those exploring the Dhamma who see this sort of reasoning and lump the Dhamma in with the Bible and the Norse Eddas, and move on.

It sells the Dhamma short, in my opinion.

:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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