anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

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anatta and cetana (will, intention)and conditions for right

Postby robertk » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:19 pm

The Vimana vatthu atthakatha: "Chattamanavakavimanavannana" )p365 PTS This relates the story of a man who merely took refuge in the Buddha and the five precepts and was killed that same day. He was reborn in the deva world . As a deva he comes and relates:




"
behold how through few teaching I have gone to the happy destiny and reached happiness..Those who continually hear Dhamma from you, these methinks, touch the deathless (nibbana) the peace
."
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Postby robertk » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:20 pm

There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?

"One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has
heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight.
One's mind grows serene.

"These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html






Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodhi
"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Postby robertk » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:21 pm

The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance:
XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here
a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma.
And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit
and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from
this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he
feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is
established [he attains nibban];
b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching
Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or
c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or
d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders
over it and concentrates his attention on it; or
e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well
considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it
with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight,
and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a
result, and with this happiness his mind is established.
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Postby robertk » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:24 pm

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>

Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered...
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:28 pm

Dear Mike:

Not at all. In my opinion your statement is an extrapolation from the Buddha's teaching that the aggregates (or rupa+citta) cannot be controlled to a particular interpretation that denies that there is any possibility of development by making choices about the conditions. The argument, if true, would also apply to to the path you choose to follow.


I am not sure I understand what you say here at all. It seems you disagree, but I don't know exactly with which ones of my statements bellow that you don't agree with

1.an instruction whereby one tries to induce sati while doing those things, which is the one upon which the idea of "proper practice" and "conventional meditation" is based

2.But this interpretation goes against what we have agreed so far that sati can not be induced at will, but arises by conditions, which is the ones described in the avija sutta

3.If this interpretation is to be considered true, it would mean the Buddha has contradicted him-self.

It will be helpful to know, then we can discuss what is disagreed.


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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:33 pm

Dear Robert,

Thanks much for the new input!

Brgrds,
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:54 pm

Dear Mike,

It seems that my point about the idea of "proper practice" already contains wrong view in it hasn't gone through yet.

Now, of course, you might object that Ajahn Amaro does not explain how that "me trying to do something" is let go of.

However, you write that such practice is possible:
dhamma follower wrote:... as a description of one's daily life ... and the objects that sati-panna can arise and be aware of, when conditions for it to arise are sufficient.

so evidently it can happen, given the right conditions.


You misunderstand me. The right conditions for sati-panna to arise are listening to the right dhamma and wise consideration. That means there must be first a firm understanding of dhammas, and their nature of anattaness, on intellectual level, before any direct awareness of reality as it is can arise.
But, as it has been argued for a while, as long as one holds the idea of a "proper practice" whereby one induces sati, that means there's not yet right understanding. So there's not such thing as "proper practice with right view". It is only the words, not the actual understanding of dhammas.

I think Robert is an excellent supplier of references :-)

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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:50 pm

Dear Robert and DF,

Of course, I agree with Robert that I could have quoted other parts of the Satipatthana Sutta, and other suttas.

dhamma follower wrote:2.But this interpretation goes against what we have agreed so far that sati can not be induced at will, but arises by conditions, which is the ones described in the avija sutta


We certainly agree that listening to Dhamma is essentail. We disagree on on some details of our interpretations of what we have heard.

dhamma followers wrote:But, as it has been argued for a while, as long as one holds the idea of a "proper practice" whereby one induces sati, that means there's not yet right understanding. So there's not such thing as "proper practice with right view". It is only the words, not the actual understanding of dhammas.

If I am "inducing sati" and you are too. Both of us, I think, agree that sati, samadhi, and panna will (mayby!) arise due to causes and conditions: Listening to the Dhamma and subsequent actions of body and mind, not due to a self, etc, etc...

Sorry, I've read all the arguments that you and Robert have made uncountable times (a beginning cannot be recalled... :)). They still make no sense to me. From my point of view, unfortunately, no-one in the KS camp seems to understand my questions well enough to actually address them.

I guess I should, therefore, simply give up and perhaps come back to it in another lifetime or so...

Best wishes...

:anjali:
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby dhamma follower » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:58 am

Dear Mike,

From my point of view, unfortunately, no-one in the KS camp seems to understand my questions well enough to actually address them.


And/or our answers are not understood well enough :smile: Anattaness, one can not force anything to happen!

I guess I should, therefore, simply give up and perhaps come back to it in another lifetime or so...

Best wishes...


No problem, Mike. Your interest on the topic discussed is also conditioned, can't say exactly when it will come, and when it will go.

All the best,

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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:10 am

Mike
the dispute is this;
The meditation technique aficionados believe that by focusing on present realities such as feeling, body, taste, sound etc. that this is either satisampajanna or leads to it. I think such focusing is due to a subtle belief that a momentary reality like sati can be made to arise. In other words concentrating or focusing on any object is not a condition for sati.

My contention is that only by studying and considering Dhamma can there be the conditions laid that will sooner or later lead to very brief moments of experiencing realities with satisampajana.
And the path to deeper understanding and more frequent moments of sati is a very long one, lifetimes probably.
Robert
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby SamKR » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:37 am

Hello Robert,

robertk wrote: The meditation technique aficionados believe that by focusing on present realities such as feeling, body, taste, sound etc. that this is either satisampajanna or leads to it. I think such focusing is due to a subtle belief that a momentary reality like sati can be made to arise.
In other words concentrating or focusing on any object is not a condition for sati.

Yes, I understand momentary reality like sati cannot be made to arise deliberately (in ultimate sense). But why can't focusing be a condition for sati? Why would then the Buddha say these:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

"Mindfulness of death, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit & great benefit. It plunges into the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. Therefore you should develop mindfulness of death."

"I have given you this parable to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: The bowl filled to the brim with oil stands for mindfulness immersed in the body. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding, steady it, consolidate it, and undertake it well.' That is how you should train yourselves."

(all three quotes from this page.)
robertk wrote:My contention is that only by studying and considering Dhamma can there be the conditions laid that will sooner or later lead to very brief moments of experiencing realities with satisampajana.

I agree: by studying and considering Dhamma can there be the conditions laid that will sooner or later lead to very brief moments of experiencing realities with satisampajana.
But such brief moments will happen more frequently if there is atapi observation of phenomena with sampajañña (conditioned by earlier study and consideration of Dhamma) leading to Sati. And sitting meditation fulfills that purpose, and it does not increase the sense of self, if there is right view.
If studying and considering Dhamma is not an action with the sense of self, why should the sitting and observing phenomena (based on that study and consideration) be an action based on sense of self? Can't this sitting and observing and knowing with direct experience be conditioned by the study and consideration of Dhamma? I am not saying that sitting meditation is essential but I am saying that it is very useful to augment the understanding of Dhamma and realization of truth faster.
robertk wrote:And the path to deeper understanding and more frequent moments of sati is a very long one, lifetimes probably.
Robert

Indeed.
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:47 pm

Dear RobertK, DF,

robertk wrote:the dispute is this;
The meditation technique aficionados believe that by focusing on present realities such as feeling, body, taste, sound etc. that this is either satisampajanna or leads to it. I think such focusing is due to a subtle belief that a momentary reality like sati can be made to arise. In other words concentrating or focusing on any
object is not a condition for sati.


What about all the passages in Visuddhimagga that talk about deliberate practice in seclusion, about "one should do this and that"?
About a half of the book talks about what one should do in seclusion, ascetic practices, samadhi, etc.

For example, it says that Metta:

    "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. - VsM IX,1

There are many more such instructions for other meditation methods.

Please note, the VsM doesn't say that any place is the right place for the beginner.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:38 pm

That section of the visuddhimagga is explaining samatha not vipassana.
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby Alex123 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:43 am

robertk wrote:That section of the visuddhimagga is explaining samatha not vipassana.


But it does say things that should be done.

Moreover, it doesn't teach things that are useless for the path. After many (if not all) subjects in this section it talks about reaching maggaphala.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:49 pm

SamKR wrote:Why would then the Buddha say these:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...



Passages like this do give the distinct impression of sati as an activity rather than as a result of practice.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby robertk » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:27 am

Try focussing on any part of the body or breath or feelings now. Very easy to do isn't it. Anyone, even a child, can do it.

But it is very different for genuine sati samajana to be present.
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:52 am

robertk wrote:But it is very different for genuine sati samajana to be present.


So sati sampajana is a "result" of sati?
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:00 am

Sati and sampajana arise together.
In the context of satipatthana it always talks about sati-sampajana and sampajana means non- delusion or wisdom, specifically that right ipunderstanding that only a buddha can teach: anatta.

Sati can arise without sampajana but in that case it is not the sati of satipatthana. Moreover - sanna- which may arise with kusala or akusala can arise without sati but if course it still marks hardness, heat, pain etc: thus the common mistake of doing some techique where on focuses on some part of the body thinking that there is sati when it it is merely sanna.
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:43 pm

robertk wrote:Sati and sampajana arise together.
In the context of satipatthana it always talks about sati-sampajana...


Robert, could you say exactly what you're basing this assertion on? When I read the Satipatthana Sutta I see both sati and sati-sampajana being described.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:58 am

porpoise wrote:
SamKR wrote:Why would then the Buddha say these:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...



Passages like this do give the distinct impression of sati as an activity rather than as a result of practice.


Greeting Porpoise,

What is an "activity" in terms of paramatha dhammas?

Best regards,
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