About Kamma

[santa100]

Bluelotus wrote:
By backup literature do you mean commentaries of some modern-day scholar monk? If so who cares? Ven T is yet another scholar who has given his own interpretation to the sutta. The sutta alone makes no vivid claim on an after-life hell. If you think it does, quote it.

I have given you 2 sources. You have given none. The Widsom library site you gave provided the definition of the word 'parikuppa' which either translated as 'agony' (Ven. T.) or 'festering' (Woodward). Since it's a website that gives just a definition, tell me the exact source and the author who translated it please.

Bluelotus wrote:
No mention of "incurable" there. I hear metta.lk has similar translation but I have not been able to find the sutta there. You have come up with some translators who agree with Ven T. Are you saying other sources are all wrong while only the sources you want to believe are right?

What other sources? You have shown none so far. I've shown you two already and they both agree with each other. Your claim about Ven. T that he simply "given his own interpretation" is flat out wrong..

[BlueLotus]

Metta.lk translation.

Bhikkhus, these five are hellish misery, disturbing and very troublesome. What five?

Destroying the mother's life, father's life, the noble one's life, splitting the blood of the Thus Gone One with a wicked intention and causing a split in the Community. Bhikkhus, these five are hellish misery, disturbing and very troublesome.

Here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html

[BlueLotus]

I have given you 2 sources. You have given none.

Lol it's like kindergartens all over again. Get over it man. The sutta translation itself is varied leave aside sutta interpretation. You have been given 2 translations of the sutta which varies to Ven T. Wisdom library gives definition to Parikuppa Sutta. Not the word parikuppa alone. It has translated the entire sutta for you. But hey, no that doesn't make you accept it anymore than those who believed the world was flat back then. Not even a teeny tiny bit possibility the world was round. That's the spirit

[santa100]

Even taking metta.lk translation into account and combine with Ven. T and Woodward's versions, at best, the "hellish misery, disturbing, and very troublesome" only added the mental suffering dimension to what's laid out in Ven T and Woodward versions. It says nothing about attaining Nibbana in the same lifetime which one committed the grave crimes as you've claimed. Who's playing kindergartens here then?

[BlueLotus]

Even taking metta.lk translation into account and combine with Ven. T and Woodward's versions, at best, the "hellish misery, disturbing, and very troublesome" only added the mental suffering dimension to what's laid out in Ven T and Woodward versions. It says nothing about attaining Nibbana in the same lifetime which one committed the grave crimes as you've claimed. Who's playing kindergartens here then?

Exactly! It says nothing about not being able to attain Nibbana in the same lifetime either.

[santa100]

No, it said about "incurable", and at the very best, ""hellish misery, disturbing, and very troublesome", not "attaining Nibbana in the same life time"...

[BlueLotus]

No, it said about "incurable", and at the very best, ""hellish misery, disturbing, and very troublesome", not "attaining Nibbana in the same life time"...

Yes. "hellish misery, disturbing, and very troublesome" can very well be the mental agony one suffers. The sutta does not say anything about "nibbana in this life or NO nibbana in this life".

Anyway, I don't see a point of this conversation further.

[santa100]

Right down to the Pali source, the source of all the sources that is, and if you still have trouble understanding, then I don't know what else to say:

[BJT Page 240] [\x 240/]
5. 3. 3. 9
(Parikuppasuttaṃ)
(Sāvatthinidānaṃ)
29. Pañcime bhikkhave āpāyikā nerayikā parikuppā atekicchā. Katame pañca:

Mātā jīvitā voropitā hoti, pitā jīvitā voropito hoti, arahaṃ1 jīvitā voropito hoti, tathāgatassa duṭṭhena cittena lohitaṃ uppaditaṃ hoti, saṅgho bhinno hoti.

Ime kho bhikkhave pañca āpāyikā nerayikā parikuppā atekicchā ti.
[PTS Page 147] [\q 147/]

Note:
atekiccha: incurable, one who cannot be pardoned
~~ "Concise Pali-English Dictionary" - A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera ~~

[BlueLotus]

Right down to the Pali source, the source of all the sources that is, and if you still have trouble understanding, then I don't know what else to say:

[BJT Page 240] [\x 240/]
5. 3. 3. 9
(Parikuppasuttaṃ)
(Sāvatthinidānaṃ)
29. Pañcime bhikkhave āpāyikā nerayikā parikuppā atekicchā. Katame pañca:

Mātā jīvitā voropitā hoti, pitā jīvitā voropito hoti, arahaṃ1 jīvitā voropito hoti, tathāgatassa duṭṭhena cittena lohitaṃ uppaditaṃ hoti, saṅgho bhinno hoti.

Ime kho bhikkhave pañca āpāyikā nerayikā parikuppā atekicchā ti.
[PTS Page 147] [\q 147/]

Note:
atekiccha: incurable, one who cannot be pardoned
~~ "Concise Pali-English Dictionary" - A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera ~~

The "source of all the sources" is not even pali dude.

Anyway, I need to check several alternate sources of translation to the word "atekiccha". Do you happen to know how Bhikku bhodi translates this? Anyway, ven B seems to translate incurable as "cannot be pardoned". Nothing about after-life there.

[santa100]

I'm ordering the AN translation by Ven. Bodhi, hopefully it'll come soon. Whether it's rendered as "incurable" or "cannot be pardoned", either one indicates the impossibility of Nibbana in the same life time that one comitted the Grave crimes. It doesn't mean s/he's condemned forever though..

[BlueLotus]

Whether it's rendered as "incurable" or "cannot be pardoned", either one indicates the impossibility of Nibbana in the same life time

That of course is a big liberty you are taking based on your own belief system and faith. It is not something explicit in the sutta. I am also not 100% sure if the actual translation is what was quoted since there seem to be alternate translations around. Therefore personally I refrain from attaching to either of the interpretations without refusing the possibility of both.

Good luck with Bhodi's book.

[santa100]

It's not my job to tell you what and what not to believe. I simply pointed out all the sources and analysis from respected teachers that don't agree with your viewpoint. Thanks, looking forward to see the Great Book..

[BlueLotus]

It's not my job to tell you what and what not to believe. I simply pointed out all the sources and analysis from respected teachers that don't agree with your viewpoint.

Simply said, I do not "believe" so it's all good. I am aware of the sources you showed and I am also aware that there are sources that contradict.

[santa100]

Good luck with everything...

[BlueLotus]

Ok believer. Thanks and good luck to you too.