Jhana - for what doing?

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Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:15 am

It seems to me that peoples are addicted to absorbtion.

Problem is that absorbtion is born from seclusion and separation, and not from addiction and clinging.
It would be better not to teach jhanas attainement, cause all attainement is impermanent;
But teach dispassion toward form, feeling, perception, formations and consciosness.

Jhana is impermanent. And brings suffering.
Nibbana is beyond impermanence. Beyond suffering.

SN 24.1
"That which is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, and ranged over by the mind: is permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent, venerable sir."


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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby daverupa » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:04 pm

DAWN wrote:Jhana is impermanent. And brings suffering.


If so, you are saying that since the eightfold path is impermanent, it brings suffering.

Altogether ridiculous.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby beeblebrox » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:17 pm

daverupa wrote:
DAWN wrote:Jhana is impermanent. And brings suffering.


If so, you are saying that since the eightfold path is impermanent, it brings suffering.

Altogether ridiculous.


Interesting reaction...
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:12 pm

daverupa wrote:
DAWN wrote:Jhana is impermanent. And brings suffering.


If so, you are saying that since the eightfold path is impermanent, it brings suffering.

Altogether ridiculous.


No, actualy i speak about jhana attainement.
Peoples get attachement to it, it's dirrectly visible beacuse peoples are afraid to say that they have jhana, because others will get critics about it. And why? Because there is attachement, some kind of competition, and suffering.
The first, who said that he have jhanna suffer because he have doubt now, and as he want it to be true - he suffer to lose it.
The second, is affected by attachement, greed, jalousy, competition, and he suffer, because he find himself useless, not able to reach jhana.

Everybody suffer.
Why?
Because there is teachers who teach jhana as pleasure, they dont teach jhana as equnanimity, they teach jhana by clining, they dont teach jhana by detachement and dispassion, they teach jhana by attainement, they dont teach jhana by liberation.

It's impermanent.

What is concern Noble Eightfold Path, i will try to analyse it:

I. Right View - is the wiev about anicca, dukkha anatta - it's permanent or impermanent?
II. Right Intentions - is about not suffer - who want to suffer?
III. Right Speech, Right Action - is about dont harm others, dont bring suffering - it is suffering?
IV. Right Livelihood - is about dont harm others, dont bring suffering - it is suffering?
V. Right Effort - is about let kamma do it's work, about not-action, about anicca - it is suffering?
VI. Right Mindfulness - this comes from seclusion of mind, from dispassion, not tuching - is fire brings suffering without tuching it?
VII. Right Concentration - this comes from calm of mind born from seclusion of mind, from dispassion, not tuching - is fire brings suffering without tuching it?
VIII. The Development of Wisdom - this comes from calm of mind, from seclusion of mind, from dispassion, from mind wich is not enfuenced by impermanence of fenomenas - is clear and smooth mirrow bring suffering?

Buddha said that concentration is born from seclusion, he dont said that concentration is born from clining to pleasure.
Pleasure is secondery effect of jhana, without secluded mind there is no pleasure, but when i listent teachers, they speak about pleasure, they dont speak about nature of this pleasure, they dont explain that this is pleasure of seclusion, pleasure of non-clining, pleasure of not-tuching, and that it's not pleasure wich bings true pleasure; but seclusion of mind, the calm of mind that blings true pleasure, pleasure out of suffering, out of impermanence out of attinement, beyond absorbed mind.

They dont teach that way.
And because they dont teach that way, peoples dont seek for detachement, and dispassion from form, feeling, perception, formations, consciosness, they dont see it like 'not mine', 'not i-am'; but they develop it, they apropriate it, they seek pleasure and delight in agregates and in different state of this agregates.

Theaching by pleasure is make believers like a donkey witch run to carrot on stick, absorbed by carrot, putt their mind in carrot, make their mind like carrot, and beeing absorbed by carrot, they dont see that they run on a carrot field.
But if they stop tu run to this carrot, and open their mind, and not absorb it by whatsever, they will be free from carrot, from rider and from collar.

It's wrong, to want these poor beings to follow this carrot.

Form, feeling, perception, formation, consciosness is impermanent, is not mine, not miself, Nibbana is beyond all that, in other side, on other bank. If it would be a right way to teach by pleasure, by carrot, it would not bring suffering from those who practice it. But everyone knows that jhana is objcet to suffering.
Why?
Because they want pleasure that teachers spoke about. Because they want to win this competition and get more and more. Because they suffer when someone speak about his attainements, feel greed and hatred, want to broke the one who spoke about it. But it's impermanent !

If jhana would be explain by detachement, by dispassion, by seclussion - there would not be competion, not would be claining, not would be suffering, fear, greed, hatred and whole mass of suffering.

IMO :|

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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby imagemarie » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:48 pm

You might find this helpful Dawn

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed098.htm

:anjali:
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:49 pm

SN 35.104
There are, bhikkhus, mental fenomena cognisible by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensualy entincing, tantalizing. These have been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, make like a palm stump, obliterated so that thay are no more subject to future ariseng. He declares an exertion [should be made] for their abandoning. Therefore the Tathagata is called the one who declares the exertion to become secure from bondage.

SN 35.105
When there is mind, by clining to the mind, pleasure and pain arise internally.
...
But without clining to what is impermanet, suffering, and object to change, could pleasure and pain arise internally?
No, venerable sir.
...
Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple axperiance revultion toward the mind. Exeriancing revultion, he becomes dispassionate. Throught dispassion [his mind] is liberated.

SN 35.108
When there is mind, bhikkhus, by clining to the mind, by adhering to the mind, the toughts occurs : 'I am superior' or 'I am equal' or 'I am inferior.'
...
But without clining to what is impermanent, suffering, and object to change, could the toughts occur : 'I am superior' or 'I am equal' or 'I am inferior.' ?
No, venerable sir.

SN 35.109
The mind, bhikkhus, is the thing that fetters; the desire an lust for it is the fetter there.

SN 35.111
Bhikkhus, without direclty knowing and fully understanding the mind, without developing dispassion toward it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying of suffering.


Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi tr.
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:51 pm

imagemarie wrote:You might find this helpful Dawn

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed098.htm

:anjali:


Thanks you a lot :anjali:

I will try to read it today :reading:
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby Digity » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:00 pm

The Buddha encouraged the practice of Jhanas...so, to say you shouldn't practice seems wrong to me. I think the appropriate thing is to practice, but without clinging. That's up to the meditater to do.
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:09 pm

The Buddha not only encouraged to practice jhana as also said it was pleasure that should not be feared.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby beeblebrox » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:46 pm

Jhana itself is nothing special, it's what you do with it that matters. Even what you do while training for jhana is more important. If you're doing it in a way which doesn't lead to detachment, non-clinging, dispassion, or seclusion from the unwholesome formations, then like what Dawn said, it's inappropriate.

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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:31 pm

Jhana is born from seclusion of mind, from detachement, not from pleasure. It's true that the one should not be afraid of it, but actualy this pleasure is so strong, that the one is afraid of it, can not control, afraid to let it go, afraid of detachement. The one should not be afraid.
"Yes, this is the path. Why am I afraid of that happiness that has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unwholesome states of mind?"

Pleasure is secondery effect in jhana, not the aim. Like a fire is the secondery effect of light focusing by a lens. When the aim is not detachement between lens and light, but the warm and light of the fire itself - detachement can stop, or can not brings more pleasure, can not brings more fire, then suffering arise.
"For a person lacking right samādhi, seeing things as they truly are is destroyed...the turning away from and fading away of passion is destroyed...and (the opportunity for) liberation is destroyed." (AN 5.24)

When the one is not conditioned by the fire, when the teacher of the one not speak about pleasure, but speak about detachement, then the practitioner is not conditioned by what is impermanent, but have Nibbana as its aim.

Buddha teach jhana not by pleasure, but by detachement.

"rapture born from detachement" - it means that pleasure is conditioned by detachement, it not means that detachement is conditioned by pleasure. When detachement is conditioned by pleasure - it's a trap, it can bring an end to liberation if the one not use his own wisdom to undertsand that it's impermanent, suffering, not mine."For someone with both jhāna and wisdom, Nibbāna is near. ” (Dhp 372)
But when your teacher all time speak about pleasure, with great smilie, it's difficult to get out from this trap, it's difficult to not be conditioned by pleasure, but it's easy to take practice like a cometition, it's easy to see thoughts like this occur in the min : 'i am superior' or 'i am equal' or 'i am inferior'

Jhana have to be teached by detachement, not by pleasure.

If the one have wisdom - there is no danger, but when the one's wisdom is not present - this conditioning becomes dengerous.

IMO

beeblebrox wrote:Jhana itself is nothing special, it's what you do with it that matters. Even what you do while training for jhana is more important. If you're doing it in a way which doesn't lead to detachment, non-clinging, dispassion, or seclusion from the unwholesome formations, then like what Dawn said, it's inappropriate.

:anjali:


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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:10 pm

imagemarie wrote:You might find this helpful Dawn

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed098.htm

:anjali:


Great teaching ! :bow:
Thanks you :anjali:
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:10 pm

DAWN wrote:Everybody suffer.
Why?
Because there is teachers who teach jhana as pleasure, they dont teach jhana as equnanimity, they teach jhana by clining, they dont teach jhana by detachement and dispassion, they teach jhana by attainement, they dont teach jhana by liberation.


I don't know any reputable monks or nuns who teach by clinging; perhaps you are referring to some self-proclaimed lay teachers "specializing" in jhana instruction?

Jhanas are part of the meditation path, included in samma-samādhi. Without samādhi it would only be the "Noble sevenfold path" when it should be the Noble Eightfold Path. :tongue:
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby dude » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:13 pm

What's wrong with pleasure as an expedient?
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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:31 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Jhana itself is nothing special, it's what you do with it that matters. Even what you do while training for jhana is more important. If you're doing it in a way which doesn't lead to detachment, non-clinging, dispassion, or seclusion from the unwholesome formations, then like what Dawn said, it's inappropriate.

I think this is an important point. In the end, attachment to all conditioned phenomena (however useful they have been in development) must be let go of:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


[On attaining the fourth level of jhana, having become disenchanted with grosser phenomena...] there remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable & luminous....

"He discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. (Similarly with the remaining formless states.)' He neither fabricates nor wills for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, he is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
[Similarly for all the jhanas and formless attainments]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby DAWN » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:32 am

Thanks you mike for quotations :anjali:

David N. Snyder wrote:
DAWN wrote:Everybody suffer.
Why?
Because there is teachers who teach jhana as pleasure, they dont teach jhana as equnanimity, they teach jhana by clining, they dont teach jhana by detachement and dispassion, they teach jhana by attainement, they dont teach jhana by liberation.


I don't know any reputable monks or nuns who teach by clinging; perhaps you are referring to some self-proclaimed lay teachers "specializing" in jhana instruction?


Yes.
Actualy i dont know many teachers who teach jhana, but in some recently watched vidios about it, i heared to much about pleasure, with to much discriptions and emotions, but very less about nature of this pleasure. Perharps it's due to my own perception.

It's certenly because of good motivatio, to motivate peoples in practice, but it seems to me not to much skillfull and even dengerous to speak about pleasure and use it like motivation to practice.

IMO :thinking:

Vive Septfold path ! Less work to do ! :woohoo: :tongue:

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Re: Jhana - for what doing?

Postby daverupa » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:37 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:The Buddha not only encouraged to practice jhana as also said it was pleasure that should not be feared.


Quite so! MN 66:

This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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