cause of depression

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Re: cause of depression

Postby danieLion » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:12 am

Retro,
I think you've made a good connection. I'm going to think about it for a while. Please feel free to remind me if I forget to come back to this.
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Re: cause of depression

Postby cbonanno » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:20 pm

danieLion wrote:
cbonanno wrote:The fact that meditation rids depressive symptoms is just a side effect of practice.

So "side effects" and "cures" are mutually exclusive?


Maybe to word it differently...one needs to make curing depression a side effect of practice and not the goal.

edited to add this link I ran across today:
http://www.tricycle.com/cushion/goalless-practice
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Re: cause of depression

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:39 pm

danieLion wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Ben wrote:It depends whether you mean clinical depression or sadness/melancholy.
And if you are looking for a scientific/medical explanation, a Buddhist explanation, a combination or something else.

Can you give a Buddhist explanation to clinical depression please?

Yes, can you?


So what is it please? I asked because I don't know. I have suffered depression a lot.
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Re: cause of depression

Postby danieLion » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

BlueLotus wrote:
Ben wrote:It depends whether you mean clinical depression or sadness/melancholy.
And if you are looking for a scientific/medical explanation, a Buddhist explanation, a combination or something else.

Can you give a Buddhist explanation to clinical depression please?


Just throwing this out there for your consideration (so please don't try to "debate" me on it - I'm not here for that)...

Sloth (thīna), Torpor (middha)
http://www.zolag.co.uk/Cetasikas/html_n ... Doubt.html

Metta,
Retro. :)

BlueLotus: To clarify: "clinical" is just a fancy way of saying empirical/not just theoretical. Patients are part of the clinical analysis process, and participate in clarifying the meaning of empircal evidence/observations and interventions results.

Retro, BlueLotus: Moping, lying or sitting around all day, staying in bed to hide from the world, and other sloth-and-torpor like behaviors may not be a cause of depression in an "ultimate" sense, but usually if not always make it worse. Most clinical psychologists agree (a bit of "Weasling" here on my part, I'll admit, but only for brevity's sake). So, here is (in part) a clinical explanation of a cause--or contributing factor if you prefer--of depression.
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Re: cause of depression

Postby danieLion » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:32 am

1) Congnitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is a clinical explanation of depression.
2) CBT and the Buddha are in approximate agreement about role of the mind in creating depression.
3) Therefore, CBT is an approximate Buddhist clinical explanation of the cause(s) of depression.
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Re: cause of depression

Postby cooran » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:05 am

Hello all,

What is CBT?
http://www.aacbt.org/viewStory/WHAT+IS+CBT%3F

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: cause of depression

Postby PeterB » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:42 am

danieLion wrote:1) Congnitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is a clinical explanation of depression.
2) CBT and the Buddha are in approximate agreement about role of the mind in creating depression.
3) Therefore, CBT is an approximate Buddhist clinical explanation of the cause(s) of depression.


A Psychiatrist and Cognitive Therapist who has in the past had much contact with Buddhadhamma writes :smile:

Cognitive Behaviour Therapy is not a clinical explanation of depression.
It is a response to depression and some other conditions, which is effective for some subjects, and highly effective in some cases.
But the causes of depression are various, and some types of depression do not respond to CBT or any kind of " talking therapy "
The clinical explanations of depression address a spectrum of causality.
The treatment of those types of depression which are the result of faulty learning, which is basically what CBT addresses, are compatible with increased mindfulness.

:anjali:
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Re: cause of depression

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:27 pm

:offtopic: Hey Peter wow man, good to see you again. I will now return to the balcony to watch. :focus:

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Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Re: cause of depression

Postby PeterB » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:09 pm

Hi there John... :toast: I'll be on the balcony too... :smile:
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Re: cause of depression

Postby danieLion » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:21 am

PeterB wrote:
danieLion wrote:1) Congnitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is a clinical explanation of depression.
2) CBT and the Buddha are in approximate agreement about role of the mind in creating depression.
3) Therefore, CBT is an approximate Buddhist clinical explanation of the cause(s) of depression.


A Psychiatrist and Cognitive Therapist who has in the past had much contact with Buddhadhamma writes :smile:

Please cite a name, otherwise I'll treat this as hearsay.

PeterB wrote:Cognitive Behaviour Therapy is not a clinical explanation of depression.

This doesn't address the logic of the syllogism.

PeterB wrote:But the causes of depression are various
Incorrect. They're mostly caused by cognitive disrortions rooted in greed/passion/desire, hate/anger/aversion and inappropriate-attention/ignorance/delusion.
PeterB wrote:and some types of depression do not respond to CBT or any kind of " talking therapy"
First, the amount of people CBT doesn't work for isn't statistically significant. Second: if this therapist knew what he or she was talking about, he or she would know that CBT is not a "talk therapy" and that term "talk therapy" is a useless concept. Psychiatrists usally believe in such nonsense so as to prevent feeling cogntively dissonant about their overestimations of the efficacy of "drug therapy."
PeterB wrote:The clinical explanations of depression address a spectrum of causality.
That depends on what's meant by "address."
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Re: cause of depression

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:30 am

Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote:Please cite a name, otherwise I'll treat this as hearsay.

I presume he means PeterB.

:anjali:
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Re: cause of depression

Postby PeterB » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:54 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote:Please cite a name, otherwise I'll treat this as hearsay.

I presume he means PeterB.

:anjali:
Mike

Indeed MIke...I am psychiatrist with nearly 25 years experience in the field..and along with many of my colleagues in the UK field I have used CBT for the last 12 years.
Uner the British NHS system there is no gain financial or otherwise to be had for preferring one type of treatment over another.
CBT is a enormously useful tool. And it has its limits. It usually does not address to any great degree the group of depressive conditions that used to be called "endogenous " Which are frequently genetically linked and are more like diabetes than they are a " mental " condition in that they involve metabolic dysfunction.. And those conditions are not "statistically insignificant "..it is a large group.
It certainly makes a change to have a lay person OVER estimating the usefulness of a given intervention..!
But I am also long enough in the tooth to recognise a fixed belief when I encounter one. :smile: ..so I will leave it there.
:anjali:
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Re: cause of depression

Postby cooran » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:01 am

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Peter. Good to see you posting again! :smile:

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: cause of depression

Postby Yana » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:11 am

hi,

When i suffer depression it's usually because of unwise attention and lack of mindfulness.

I am either caught up in a destructive or negative thought pattern and lack the awareness to take one step back to assess things.

Depression can sometimes feel too overwhelming that i can't really practice mindfulness or even "assess it" (well i can't function really) so i usually counter it with something positive or feel good.Something that cheers me up without harming me like going to the amusement park or go out a have a picnic or some place with beautiful scenery and surroundings.Then when I've brought my mind back to normal i can meditate again which has a way of suppressing any harmful thoughts.And being mindful helps prevent depression because as soon as i realize i am about to enter the same old pattern i just stop and change route.

Depression exists because something else existed before that,if i can stop that something else from existing then i am good to go! :tongue:
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Re: cause of depression

Postby PeterB » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:22 am

Yana wrote:hi,

When i suffer depression it's usually because of unwise attention and lack of mindfulness.

I am either caught up in a destructive or negative thought pattern and lack the awareness to take one step back to assess things.

Depression can sometimes feel too overwhelming that i can't really practice mindfulness or even "assess it" (well i can't function really) so i usually counter it with something positive or feel good.Something that cheers me up without harming me like going to the amusement park or go out a have a picnic or some place with beautiful scenery and surroundings.Then when I've brought my mind back to normal i can meditate again which has a way of suppressing any harmful thoughts.And being mindful helps prevent depression because as soon as i realize i am about to enter the same old pattern i just stop and change route.

Depression exists because something else existed before that,if i can stop that something else from existing then i am good to go! :tongue:


Hi Chris. :hello:

What you describe Yana, sounds like the kind of condition that could benefit from CBT.

On rereading my previous post I realise that tempus has fugited faster than I thought... :smile:
In fact I have been a psych for nearly 29 years,,and a CBTherapist for fifteen...gulp.

:anjali:
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Re: cause of depression

Postby cbonanno » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:43 pm

PeterB wrote:
Yana wrote:hi,

When i suffer depression it's usually because of unwise attention and lack of mindfulness.

I am either caught up in a destructive or negative thought pattern and lack the awareness to take one step back to assess things.

Depression can sometimes feel too overwhelming that i can't really practice mindfulness or even "assess it" (well i can't function really) so i usually counter it with something positive or feel good.Something that cheers me up without harming me like going to the amusement park or go out a have a picnic or some place with beautiful scenery and surroundings.Then when I've brought my mind back to normal i can meditate again which has a way of suppressing any harmful thoughts.And being mindful helps prevent depression because as soon as i realize i am about to enter the same old pattern i just stop and change route.

Depression exists because something else existed before that,if i can stop that something else from existing then i am good to go! :tongue:


Hi Chris. :hello:

What you describe Yana, sounds like the kind of condition that could benefit from CBT.

On rereading my previous post I realise that tempus has fugited faster than I thought... :smile:
In fact I have been a psych for nearly 29 years,,and a CBTherapist for fifteen...gulp.

:anjali:


CBT is soooo yesterday. ACT is the new thing, even closer to Buddhism than CBT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance ... nt_Therapy

I would not spend anymore time trying to figure out why you are depressed, the whole medical establishment could not tell you that. Just sit, breathe and watch. Believe me, it works.
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Re: cause of depression

Postby PeterB » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:07 pm

I am glad that works for you....it most definitely will not work for everyone however.
I wish it did..my life would be a lot easier.
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Re: cause of depression

Postby daverupa » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:41 pm

PeterB wrote:I am glad that works for you....it most definitely will not work for everyone however.
I wish it did..my life would be a lot easier.


Dialectical Behavior Therapy made the rounds once upon a time, but never seems to get mentioned when CBT is on the table - I think CBT is more popular? More successful? More generally applicable?

ACT research still looks fairly young, though promising. I wonder about the use of a 'transcendental self' concept, however...

(Satisampajanna and anapanasati don't get mentioned nearly enough... :tongue: )
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: cause of depression

Postby PeterB » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:00 pm

They use the same basic techniques daverupa...In general terms they are as good as the therapist using them..
:anjali:
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