Jhana and breathing [Can anyone answer my question...]

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Jhana and breathing [Can anyone answer my question...]

Postby dvemebhikkhave » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:46 pm

I remember reading somewhere in the pali canon a verse about there not being any breathing in the 4th jhana, and another verse about the breath being an obstacle to the 1st jhana..are there any dhammafarer's who can point me in the direction of a sutta/vagga so i can try to put an end to all these claims to 'I have jhana,' I looked in the jhana samyutta not there....

p.s a response preferably not 'try such and such a sutta/vagga' but rather 'its in such and such a sutta/vagga' would be good thnks
dvemebhikkhave
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:59 pm

Re: Can anyone answer my question...

Postby daverupa » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:02 pm

AN 10.72

To one in the first jhana, sounds are a thorn.

AN 9.31

When one has attained the fourth jhāna, kaya-sankhara have been stopped.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 3707
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

2 questions

Postby dvemebhikkhave » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:24 pm

does the reference (SN IV sutta 217 refer to the salayatana vagga?) its about the breath being a hindrance to the 1st jhana, and does anyone have a reference for the absence of breathing in the 4th jhana?? thnks
dvemebhikkhave
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:59 pm

Re: 2 questions

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:53 pm

dvemebhikkhave wrote:does the reference (SN IV sutta 217 refer to the salayatana vagga?) its about the breath being a hindrance to the 1st jhana, and does anyone have a reference for the absence of breathing in the 4th jhana?? thnks

SN IV is Samyutta Nikaya book 4 of the PTS editions, they usually have page numbers not sutta numbers so it is difficult to say precisely
however if it is refering to the sutta it is SN 35.217 Bāhirānāgata yaṃ dukkha, or the PTS refference - SN IV 155 which is in the salayatanavagga
which goes
1. "Monks, forms, sounds, scents, tastes, touches, and ideas will be unpleasant in the future. The impermanent are unpleasant and the unpleasant lack self. When self is lacking, it is not mine, I am not there, and it is not my self. This should be seen, as it really is, with right wisdom.

2. Monks, the learned noble disciple seeing it thus turns from forms, sounds, scents, tastes, touches and ideas. Having turned loses interest and is released. When released knowledge arises, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived to the end duties are done and I have nothing more to wish."


I can not think of any references at the moment but believe there are some scarce refference somewhere, try going through the great rebirth debate using the ctrl+F function to search for breath quickly in each page.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5661
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: 2 questions

Postby dvemebhikkhave » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:06 pm

ok thnks what about Anguttara 4 sutta/page? 430 (if the reference is to the pts then the no is a page no right?) its meant to be a sutta about jhana being an end of the sense world..?
dvemebhikkhave
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:59 pm

Re: 2 questions

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:14 pm

Hi dvemebhikkhave,

SN IV 217 probably means page 217 of volume IV of the PTS Pali version of the Samyutta Nikaya. This can be translated at http://suttacentral.net/ giving SN 36.11
SN 36.11 PTS: S iv 216 CDB ii 1270 Rahogata Sutta: Secluded
"I have further taught, monk, the gradual cessation of conditioned phenomena. In him who has attained the first meditative absorption[jhana], speech has ceased. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking has ceased. Having attained the third absorption, joy has ceased. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation have ceased. Having attained the sphere of the infinity of space, perception of form has ceased. Having attained the sphere of the infinity of consciousness, the perception of the sphere of the infinity of space has ceased. Having attained the sphere of no-thingness, the perception of the sphere of infinity of consciousness has ceased. Having attained the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the perception of the sphere of no-thingness has ceased. Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. In a taint-free monk greed has ceased, hatred has ceased, delusion has ceased.


AN IV 430 would be AN 9.38, Lokāyatika sutta,
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
7. Lokàyatikasutta: Pertaining to the ordinary view

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Jhana and breathing [Can anyone answer my question...]

Postby dvemebhikkhave » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:35 am

thanks mike, how do you decode analayo's PTS references? (from the jhana debate dialogue?) i.e i googled Pali Text Society but couldn't find an adequete search engine to find out say the achaan Thanissaro equivalent, can you search the access to insight database using pts references?
dvemebhikkhave
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:59 pm

Re: Jhana and breathing [Can anyone answer my question...]

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:43 am

Hi dvemebhikkhave

The easiest way is to go to:
http://suttacentral.net/
and enter
SN IV 217
in the box, check "Volume/Page reference", and click "Submit".
In this case, you'll be pointed to several translations. For some suttas there are no on-line translations, but you will at least get the SN 36.11 form of reference.

There is some more discussion at: http://suttacentral.net/help.php

That site was set up to allow easy correspondence between Suttas from different schools, so there is some extra discussion that is not so relevant for this purpose.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Jhana and breathing [Can anyone answer my question...]

Postby DAWN » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:24 pm

With cessetion of breath it's heart that make lungs mouve. :heart:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
User avatar
DAWN
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm


Return to Samatha Meditation and Jhana

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests