Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

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pilgrim
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Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

Postby pilgrim » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:12 pm

Is the sangha in these 2 synonymous?

Tiratana (3 Jewels)
In the Tiratana Vandana, the Sangha is described as "attha purisa puggalā" which means the "eight kinds of individuals." So it is clear that the Sangha of the Tiratana is the Ariya Sangha.

Tisarana (3 Refuges)
In the Tisarana, there is no elaboration of who constitutes the Sangha. However, if we go by the precedent in the suttas, the lay people during the Buddha's time take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Bhikkhu Sangha .

This can be found in the stock passage which forms the closing paragraph of many suttas such as the Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta. Lokayatika Sutta, Abhaya Sutta, Cunda Sutta, etc where the layman, after the discourse by the Buddha concludes by taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Bhikkhu Sangha, with the verse "Esāhaṃ, bhante, bhagavantaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca. Upāsakaṃ maṃ bhagavā dhāretu ajjatagge pāṇupetaṃ saraṇaṃ gata nti." which is translated as "I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:10 pm

Hi Pilgrim,
you need to remember the going for refuge in the stock passages you cite is the living community they are joining, yet when people take refuge in the sangha as in the five precepts... they are taking it in the Noble sangha, the Ideal, not the ordinary. there is a obvious reason for this as the new monk learns from those who are their new companions whereas taking the refuge is to the inspiration of good examples/friends.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

Postby pilgrim » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:07 am

Hi Cittasanto,
In the suttas I cited, the lay-follower remained a layman, and as far as the sutta goes, he did not ordain. Yet, he took refuge in the bhikkhu sangha only ( and not even in the bhikkhuni sangha, let alone the Ariya sangha).

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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:23 am

This probably happened a lot, before the bhikkhuni sangha arose.

It may be possible that the 'noble sangha' designation is a later formulaic reflecting the time, per the Suttas, when there were "more rules and less monks of attainment". In any event, the Vinaya records an evolving conception of Buddhist ritual, and seeing such a thing elsewhere comes as no surprise.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:50 am

daverupa wrote:This probably happened a lot, before the bhikkhuni sangha arose.

It may be possible that the 'noble sangha' designation is a later formulaic reflecting the time, per the Suttas, when there were "more rules and less monks of attainment". In any event, the Vinaya records an evolving conception of Buddhist ritual, and seeing such a thing elsewhere comes as no surprise.

I agree with this. But also the 'bhikkhu sangha' may be a later addition to help the sangha keep supporters from only offering to certain members?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana

Postby SarathW » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:41 am

I found that the following link is also helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Jewels


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