Is the sangha in these 2 synonymous?
Tiratana (3 Jewels)
In the Tiratana Vandana, the Sangha is described as "attha purisa puggalā" which means the "eight kinds of individuals." So it is clear that the Sangha of the Tiratana is the Ariya Sangha.
Tisarana (3 Refuges)
In the Tisarana, there is no elaboration of who constitutes the Sangha. However, if we go by the precedent in the suttas, the lay people during the Buddha's time take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Bhikkhu Sangha .
This can be found in the stock passage which forms the closing paragraph of many suttas such as the Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta. Lokayatika Sutta, Abhaya Sutta, Cunda Sutta, etc where the layman, after the discourse by the Buddha concludes by taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Bhikkhu Sangha, with the verse "Esāhaṃ, bhante, bhagavantaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca. Upāsakaṃ maṃ bhagavā dhāretu ajjatagge pāṇupetaṃ saraṇaṃ gata nti." which is translated as "I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana
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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana
Hi Pilgrim,
you need to remember the going for refuge in the stock passages you cite is the living community they are joining, yet when people take refuge in the sangha as in the five precepts... they are taking it in the Noble sangha, the Ideal, not the ordinary. there is a obvious reason for this as the new monk learns from those who are their new companions whereas taking the refuge is to the inspiration of good examples/friends.
you need to remember the going for refuge in the stock passages you cite is the living community they are joining, yet when people take refuge in the sangha as in the five precepts... they are taking it in the Noble sangha, the Ideal, not the ordinary. there is a obvious reason for this as the new monk learns from those who are their new companions whereas taking the refuge is to the inspiration of good examples/friends.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana
Hi Cittasanto,
In the suttas I cited, the lay-follower remained a layman, and as far as the sutta goes, he did not ordain. Yet, he took refuge in the bhikkhu sangha only ( and not even in the bhikkhuni sangha, let alone the Ariya sangha).
In the suttas I cited, the lay-follower remained a layman, and as far as the sutta goes, he did not ordain. Yet, he took refuge in the bhikkhu sangha only ( and not even in the bhikkhuni sangha, let alone the Ariya sangha).
Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana
This probably happened a lot, before the bhikkhuni sangha arose.
It may be possible that the 'noble sangha' designation is a later formulaic reflecting the time, per the Suttas, when there were "more rules and less monks of attainment". In any event, the Vinaya records an evolving conception of Buddhist ritual, and seeing such a thing elsewhere comes as no surprise.
It may be possible that the 'noble sangha' designation is a later formulaic reflecting the time, per the Suttas, when there were "more rules and less monks of attainment". In any event, the Vinaya records an evolving conception of Buddhist ritual, and seeing such a thing elsewhere comes as no surprise.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
- Cittasanto
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Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana
I agree with this. But also the 'bhikkhu sangha' may be a later addition to help the sangha keep supporters from only offering to certain members?daverupa wrote:This probably happened a lot, before the bhikkhuni sangha arose.
It may be possible that the 'noble sangha' designation is a later formulaic reflecting the time, per the Suttas, when there were "more rules and less monks of attainment". In any event, the Vinaya records an evolving conception of Buddhist ritual, and seeing such a thing elsewhere comes as no surprise.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Sangha in the Tiratana and the Tisarana
I found that the following link is also helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Jewels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Jewels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”