Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:08 pm

Aloka Vihara, originally intended for Amaravati's Siladaras in the USA, just announced that their Siladharas are taking bhikkhuni ordination and the constitution of the society will be amended to accomodate bhikkhunis....
I can just imagine the consternation all this activity in the colonies must be creating back in the home country.. :tongue:
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:04 am

hi Pilgrim,

pilgrim wrote:Aloka Vihara, originally intended for Amaravati's Siladaras in the USA, just announced that their Siladharas are taking bhikkhuni ordination and the constitution of the society will be amended to accomodate bhikkhunis....
I can just imagine the consternation all this activity in the colonies must be creating back in the home country.. :tongue:


What consternation?
this was anounced months ago, shortly the calafornia ordinations happened.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby phalanyani » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:26 pm

Hi Manapa,

it's really nice to hear that the upcoming ordination of the Siladaras as Bhikkhunis in California will not have consternation as a result in England! Good news. And right from the source, right?
all the best for you!

Phalanyani Bhikkhuni
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Kaktus » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:44 am

Can someone please help me understanding the differences between

- siladharas
- bhikkhunis
- dasasilamatas
- nun

Searching around one and the same label is used in different contexts. A definition of all these labels out of one source would help me a lot to understand the differences between them.

Thank you.
English isn´t my native language. So please accept my apologies for my kind of spelling and grammar ;-)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodom » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:32 pm

Kaktus wrote:Can someone please help me understanding the differences between

- siladharas
- bhikkhunis
- dasasilamatas
- nun

Searching around one and the same label is used in different contexts. A definition of all these labels out of one source would help me a lot to understand the differences between them.

Thank you.


Hi Kaktus

This article will help clarify the differences:

Q: "Why the different name? Or is it a title? What do these Pali words "bhikkhuni" and "siladhara" mean anyway?"

Bhikkhuni

"Bhikkhuni" is the feminine form of the word "bhikkhu". Bhikkhu literally means an almsman, bhikkhuni an almswoman. The Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sangha are the fully-ordained men and women of the Buddhist monastic community established by the Buddha in his lifetime. It is a tradition more than 2,500 years old that has continued to this day, first flourishing in India, then in South, Southeast and East Asia, and now in the West. It is unclear when the Bhikkhuni Sangha died out previously in Southeast Asia, perhaps as recently as the 19th century. It has never died out in East Asia, and is currently undergoing a revival in South Asia and now Southeast Asia as well, along with its contemporary development in the West.

Other kinds of Theravada Buddhist nuns

With the more recent or ancient disappearance of the bhikkhunis' lineage of fully ordained women in South and Southeast Asian Buddhism, other forms of non-ordained or partially ordained monastic life for women appeared and evolved. The white-robed 8-precept maechees of Thailand, donchees and the pink-robed silashin of Burma all keep the 8-uposatha precepts and are classed as "lay nuns" or "religious laywomen" by the male Asian Bhikkhu Sangha. The practice of the uposatha observance of "monastic retreat" for laypeople keeping 8 precepts and wearing white was developed from the Buddha's time. With the lack of further ordination opportunities, women have undertaken and developed the uposatha-sila form for longer periods of time, sometimes for their entire lives.

In recent years, to further provide for women's religious needs and aspirations in monastic life, new forms of women's monastic discipline have evolved in South and Southeast Asia, including: Sri Lanka's light yellow-robed 10-precept nuns or Dasa-Silamatas, Thailand and Vietnam's 10-precept grey- and dark brown-robed Silavati nuns, Burma's dark brown-robed 10-precept Silashin nuns. Although none of these nuns have official status in the institution of the Monastic Sangha, the 10-precept discipline is considered a higher or deeper form of renunciation than that of the 8-precept nuns. The 10 precepts are the same as for Buddhist novices, although 10-precept nuns are generally not accepted as having the inclusive status of novices (whether male or female) within the Sangha.

Siladhara

When Western men first began to arrive in Thailand to train with great Thai masters of the forest tradition such as Ajahn Chah, the only form of monasticism apparently available for women there was of the white-robed 8-precept maechees, although there were very occassional reports and sightings of solitary brown-robed or even gold-robed nuns (aka female monks). When Ajahn Sumedho founded the monastic community of Amaravati in England at Ajahn Chah's direction, the first women aspiring to monastic life were also ordained with 8-precepts, wearing white robes similar to the Thai maechees. Finding this form of disicpline inadequate after some time, at the nuns behest, Ajahn Sumedho ordained the first four women as dark-brown-robed novices or samaneris. In later years, a further form and level of ordination was developed, in consultation with the Vinaya, the novice nuns and with a Thai-trained monk teacher in the Amaravati community, Ajahn Sucitto. While still officially lay renunciates in the eyes of the Thai Sangha heirarchy, and thus not as controversial as bhikkhuni ordination, this form of discipline included a training and discipline in more than 100 precepts, and became known as the siladhara ordination, and the community of nuns in England following this discipline, the Siladhara Order.


http://sites.google.com/site/dhammadhar ... arison-faq

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Kaktus » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:28 am

bodom wrote:This article will help clarify the differences:

http://sites.google.com/site/dhammadhar ... arison-faq


Great!

Excactly what i was looking for. The mist around the whole problem cleared a bit ...
English isn´t my native language. So please accept my apologies for my kind of spelling and grammar ;-)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 01, 2011 2:51 pm

phalanyani wrote:Hi Manapa,

it's really nice to hear that the upcoming ordination of the Siladaras as Bhikkhunis in California will not have consternation as a result in England! Good news. And right from the source, right?
all the best for you!

Phalanyani Bhikkhuni


I was more refering to the use of imagination over reality, however it certainly wasn't my sense at the time of the anouncement, and although I am here, it certainly isn't the source, as in authoritive speaking for a group, more my own sence of things. if anyone did have those feelings, I certainly didn't notice it from my vantage point.

may the four who went there originally all be well and happy.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby saccaparami » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:24 pm

Hi Manapa,

it's really nice to hear that the upcoming ordination of the Siladaras as Bhikkhunis in California will not have consternation as a result in England! Good news. And right from the source, right?
all the best for you!

Phalanyani "Bhikkhuni"


It is a shame that the siladharas were brainwashed into believing that those ordinations are legitimate.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Another sad little post in the series...
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby daverupa » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:15 pm

"It is a shame that saccaparami was brainwashed into believing that those ordinations aren't legitimate."

Fixed that for you. Get well soon.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Thanavuddho » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:05 pm

I think there are two different issues here: First is the issue of Ajahn Brahm and the other is about the bhikkhuni ordination. After considering both of this things, I think that meaby it is possible to have fully ordained bhikkhunis, at least in the West. This is perhaps a good idea. This is how I feel about it. 

I don't know if it is possible to have bhikkhunis here in Thailand. Meaby after they will be establised it the West first. Then in the future we can introduce them in Thailand as well. The senior monks are getting old and we will have a new generation of monks coming soon, both westeners and thais.

I would like to see Tan Chao Khun Brahmavamso accepted back to the larger international Wat Nong Pah Pong Sangha. I am afraid that this will not happen in the near future, at least not in the official level. But when the new generation of monks will be more senior, then meaby.

I think there were monks both western and thais who did not approve Ajahn Brahm and they got the opportunity to expel him from WNPP. They were extremely clumsy in dealing with the public media. They made themselves look really bad and Ajahn Brahm look like the shining hero of the story.
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:57 pm

Thanavuddho wrote:
I would like to see Tan Chao Khun Brahmavamso accepted back to the larger international Wat Nong Pah Pong Sangha. I am afraid that this will not happen in the near future, at least not in the official level. But when the new generation of monks will be more senior, then meaby.
.

Dear bhante,
I'd like to see that happen too. I appreciate both Aj Brahm and the WPP sangha. I have heard that Aj Brahm had made repeated overtures for reconciliation and forgiveness and I deeply respect his humility for this. I have also attended talks by the sangha of WPP. Although I respect these venerable teachers, I have to admit that some of their talks which often touch on aspects of forgiveness, acceptance, compassion and kindness sound hollow. The sooner they reconcile, the better it would be for the community which draws their inspiration from these teachers. I have been wronged before too and frankly, I sometimes think that even a little worldling like me has a greater capacity for forgiveness, so it is incredibly frustrating that they can't see the immense damage their actions or inaction is causing.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Thanavuddho » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:01 pm

pilgrim wrote:Dear bhante,
I'd like to see that happen too. I appreciate both Aj Brahm and the WPP sangha. I have heard that Aj Brahm had made repeated overtures for reconciliation and forgiveness and I deeply respect his humility for this. I have also attended talks by the sangha of WPP. Although I respect these venerable teachers, I have to admit that some of their talks which often touch on aspects of forgiveness, acceptance, compassion and kindness sound hollow. The sooner they reconcile, the better it would be for the community which draws their inspiration from these teachers. I have been wronged before too and frankly, I sometimes think that even a little worldling like me has a greater capacity for forgiveness, so it is incredibly frustrating that they can't see the immense damage their actions or inaction is causing.


until recently I too had the view (against my better judgement) that Ajahn Brahm and his supporters were the ones who were wrong in this debate. This was because of the storng faith I had in some of the teachers who were criticizing Ajahn Brahm.

I have been criticizing Ajahn Brahm myself on some occasions, even though I did try to remain silent. I did not want to get involved in this debate, because I saw it as a potential way of creating unnecessary bad kamma.

Resently I questioned my teachers and I discovered that I don't agree with them in everything anymore. First thing that came into my mind then was Ajahn Brahm and the bhikkhuni debate. I rethought about it and did some new research.

I do understand both sides of this debate. Please be patient with the different sides. There is a reason why people like me can be critical of Ajahn Brahm. But we can snap out of it in time.
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:49 pm

Excellent, Bhante!

It is okay to change one's mind after reviewing facts, it shows flexibility and an open mind.

:bow:
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Ytrog » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:46 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Excellent, Bhante!

It is okay to change one's mind after reviewing facts, it shows flexibility and an open mind.

:bow:

:goodpost: Very true. I find it astonishing how little forgiveness is demonstrated in this matter while it was clearly not in violation of the Vinaya. Most of all: the act was harmless and came from good intentions.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby lama tsewang » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:26 pm

the quote from Dhammanando Bhikkhu is interesting , it was in one ofthe posts , it says that the Ven. Tao Hai of taiwan questions the lineages of Chinese Nuns,
Tao Hai is my upadhyaya , a few years back when he was in Vancouver , i was present w ith him when he spoke on this topic . He aid that some Tibetans wuestion the validity `of Chinese nuns , lineage.
He said that he does not question it s validity.
He said something VERY different from what is quoted by Dhammanando , please check your sources more carefully
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby lama tsewang » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:37 pm

Is it true that there is now a law in Thailand that if any monks participate in making a woman a Bhikkhuni, they ca be jailed?
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby appicchato » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:16 am

Tried to find out if this is true, but no luck so far...source?...

In Thailand, anything goes...so very well may be...
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:14 am

Here is an article from 2011; apparently they do not have legal recognition, so perhaps the jailed issue relates to this?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Dan74 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:37 am

By all acounts Ajahn Bram has a large busy and thriving Sangha to take care of in Western Australia. So even though the issue must be sad and upsetting, he has plenty of positive things to occupy himself with at home.
_/|\_
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