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Sotapanna issues - Dhamma Wheel

Sotapanna issues

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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zerotime
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Sotapanna issues

Postby zerotime » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:31 am

hi all,

I need to know where I can find comments and sources around the practice of Sotapanna followers.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:39 am

Not certain as to what you mean here. Please expand on your question a bit.

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:33 am

Followers who are sotapanna?
Or people who follow sotapannas?
- Peter


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zerotime
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby zerotime » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:51 am

I'm sorry,

I'm looking for references explaining the Sotapanna characteristics and also episodes and commentaries about practice and understanding.

Do you know some detailed explanation?
(in a similar style of this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html )

thanks! :)

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zerotime
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby zerotime » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:11 am

My doubt is knowing if there is a Theravada approach similar or different to this of Zen:

- Kuei shan was asked, "Is there any further cultivation for people who have suddenly awakened?"
- He replied, “If they awaken truly, realizing the fundamental, they know instinctively when it happens. The question of cultivation or not is two-sided. Suppose beginners have conditionally attained a moment of sudden awakening to inherent truth, but there are still longstanding habit energies that cannot as yet be cleared all at once? They must be taught to clear away streams of consciousness manifesting habitual activity. That is cultivation, but there cannot be a particular doctrine to have them practice or devote themselves to.

So I want to know if there is a similar non-structured approach in Theravada sources to clean those habitual trends or, on the contrary, if there is some episode in Suttas or commentaries explaining a systematic approach in the practice regarding sotapanna.

(hope my English will be enough)

Thanks for any comment,

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:18 am

A sotapanna continues to develop the Path. See for example MN 95, the Canki Sutta.
- Peter


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zerotime
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby zerotime » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:51 am


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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:02 am

I have a feeling there may be a sutta? probably easiest to find in the index by subject on access to insight, but I am not sure.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:08 am

here is the list save time posting links
I have made bold the ones I think will most interest you!


Stream-entry, stream-winning (Sotapatti). See also Nibbana; Lay Buddhist Practice (for examples of lay stream-winners); Wise person.
Better than ruling the world or going to heaven: SN 55.1, Dhp 178
Six rewards of ~: AN 6.97
Upon ~, one does away with a vast amount of suffering: SN 13.1, SN 13.2, SN 13.8
Like a thirsty traveler looking into a well: SN 12.68
How to recognize a lay stream-winner: AN 5.179
The kind of conviction and discernment required to attain ~: SN 35.1-10
What it takes for a layperson to become a stream-winner: AN 10.92
How appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) leads to ~: SN 22.122
The four factors of ~ (and their variations): SN 55.30, SN 55.31, SN 55.32, SN 55.33, AN 10.92
How to recognize — and become — a person of integrity: MN 110
Why doubt does not arise in a stream-winner: AN 7.51
The teaching that led Ven. Ananda to ~: SN 22.83
"'When you know for yourselves...': The Authenticity of the Pali Suttas" (Thanissaro)
"The Way to Stream-entry" (Study Guide)
"Stream-entry and After" (Study Guide)
"Merit" (Study Guide)


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:46 pm

- Peter


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zerotime
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby zerotime » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:47 am

ok, thanks anyway for the list, it is quite useful

thanks,

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby lemongrass » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:23 pm

how do u know for yourself when you have entered the Buddhist stream ? how does it change your life from before, on a personal level ? which are the things which help you the most to grow on this path ? do you then become focused, in everything that you do, on enlightenment ? which things in this world would make you happy now ?

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:01 pm

Qualities of a Sotapanna

Sadda/Faith

endowed with unwavering faith in the Awakened One
endowed with unwavering faith in the Dhamma
endowed with unwavering faith in the Sangha

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Sila/morality

abstains from taking life,
abstains from taking what is not given,
abstains from illicit sex,
abstains from lying,
abstains from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Unable to perform `ananthariya papa kamma' -very unwholesome types of actions

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... n.html#n-5

see more below – they may break minor training rules, but cannot hide it, wants to confess it, doesn't want to repeat it.

Panna-degrees of insight

Knows and Sees Nama (Phassa, Vedana, Sanna, Cetana, and Thanha)
Knows and Sees Rupa (dhathu, sense doors)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#okkanta

Knows and Sees Vinnana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[ie- sees the aggregates]


Understands Cause and Effect

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Knows and Sees the Paticcasamuppada

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

No doubt (does not think `did I exist etc.)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Knows and sees anicca, dukkha, anatta (tilakkana)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Sees arising and passing away

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

perceives Nibbida, Viraga, Nirodha

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


understands the Four Noble Truths

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

experiences nibbana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

understands gratification, danger and escape
At Savatti, "Bikkhus, the uninstructed worldling does not understand as it really is the gratification (aasvada), the danger (aadinava) and the escape (nissarana) in the case of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness."

"But, Bikkhus, the instructed Noble Disciple understands as it really is the gratification, the danger and the escape in the case of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness"
-Gratification Khandavagga, 73.1 SN

self view, adherence to rites and rituals as the path to enlightenment, doubt (3 fetters)

— AN 3.87
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html

has a remaining residue of the conceit `I'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Life

linked with long life, human or divine; is linked with beauty, human or divine; is linked with happiness, human or divine; is linked with status, human or divine; is linked with influence, human or divine.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Dana/ lack of greed

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

No fear of death and the next life

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Other features
"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, considers thus: 'Is there any internal enthrallment unabandoned in me that, enthralled with which, my enthralled mind would not know or see things as they actually are?' If a monk is enthralled with sensual passion, then his mind is enthralled. If he is enthralled with ill will, then his mind is enthralled. If he is enthralled with sloth and torpor, then his mind is enthralled. If he is enthralled with restlessness and anxiety, then his mind is enthralled. If he is enthralled with uncertainty, then his mind is enthralled. If a monk is absorbed in speculation about this world, then his mind is enthralled. If a monk is absorbed in speculation about the other world, then his mind is enthralled. If a monk is given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing others with weapons of the mouth, then his mind is enthralled.

"He discerns that, 'There is no enthrallment unabandoned in me that, enthralled with which, my enthralled mind would not know and see things as they actually are. My mind is well directed for awakening to the truths.' This is the first knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'When I cultivate, develop, and pursue this view, do I personally obtain serenity, do I personally obtain Unbinding?'

"He discerns that, 'When I cultivate, develop, and pursue this view, I personally obtain serenity, I personally obtain Unbinding.' This is the second knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'Is there, outside of this [Dhamma and discipline], any other priest or contemplative endowed with the sort of view with which I am endowed?'

"He discerns that, 'There is no other priest or contemplative outside [the Buddha's Dispensation] endowed with the sort of view with which I am endowed.' This is the third knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'Am I endowed with the character of a person consummate in view?' What is the character of a person consummate in view? This is the character of a person consummate in view: although he may commit some kind of offence for which a means of rehabilitation has been laid down, still he immediately confesses, reveals, and discloses it to the Teacher or to wise companions in the holy life; having done that, he undertakes restraint for the future. Just as a young, tender infant lying on his back, when he has hit a live ember with his hand or his foot, immediately draws back; in the same way, this is the character of a person consummate in view: although he may commit some kind of offence for which a means of rehabilitation has been laid down, still he immediately confesses, reveals, and discloses it to the Teacher or to wise companions in the holy life; having done that, he undertakes restraint for the future.

"He discerns that, 'I am endowed with the character of a person consummate in view.' This is the fourth knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'Am I endowed with the character of a person consummate in view?' What is the character of a person consummate in view? This is the character of a person consummate in view: although he may be active in the various affairs of his companions in the holy life, he still has a keen regard for training in heightened virtue, training in heightened mind, & training in heightened discernment.Just as a cow with a new calf watches after her calf all the while she is grazing on grass, in the same way, this is the character of a person consummate in view: although he may be active in the various affairs of his companions in the holy life, he still has a keen regard for training in heightened virtue, training in heightened mind, & training in heightened discernment.

"He discerns that, 'I am endowed with the character of a person consummate in view.' This is the fifth knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.
"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'Am I endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view?' What is the strength of a person consummate in view? This is the strength of a person consummate in view: when the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata is being taught, he heeds it, gives it attention, engages it with all his mind, hears the Dhamma with eager ears.

"He discerns that, 'I am endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view.' This is the sixth knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: 'Am I endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view?' What is the strength of a person consummate in view? This is the strength of a person consummate in view: when the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata is being taught, he gains understanding in the meaning, gains understanding in the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma.

"He discerns that, 'I am endowed with the strength of a person consummate in view.' This is the seventh knowledge attained by him that is noble, transcendent, not held in common with run-of-the-mill people.
"A disciple of the noble ones thus possessed of seven factors has well examined the character for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. A disciple of the noble ones thus possessed of seven factors is endowed with the fruit of stream-entry."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html

"There is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner,' and whereby a monk who is an adept [i.e., an arahant], standing at the level of an adept, can discern that 'I am an adept.'

"And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner'? There is the case where a monk is a learner. He discerns, as it actually is, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner reflects, 'Is there outside of this [doctrine & discipline] any priest or contemplative who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One?' And he discerns, 'No, there is no priest or contemplative outside of this doctrine & discipline who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One.'This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment. He sees clear through with discernment their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation, but he does not touch them with his body. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'
"And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is an adept, standing at the level of an adept, can discern that 'I am an adept'? There is the case where a monk who is an adept discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment. He touches with his body and sees clear through with discernment what their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation are. This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is an adept, standing at the level of an adept, can discern that 'I am an adept.'

"Furthermore, the monk who is an adept discerns the six sense faculties: the faculty of the eye... ear... nose... tongue... body... intellect. He discerns, 'These six sense faculties will disband entirely, everywhere, & in every way without remainder, and no other set of six sense faculties will arise anywhere or in any way.' This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is an adept, standing at the level of an adept, can discern that 'I am an adept.'"
— SN 48.53
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:11 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:19 am

another method mentioned in the sutta method- using yonisomanasikara- appropriate attention

Association with people of integrity (kalyanamitta) is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma (saddhamma) is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention (yonisomanasikara) is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma (dhammanudhamma patipada) is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5

SN 22.122 PTS: S iii 167 CDB i 970
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2009
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."


In Accordance with the dhamma
At Savatti. “ Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu us practicing in accordance with the dhamma, this is what accords with the dhamma: he should dwell engrossed with revulsion towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. One who dwells engrossed with revulsion towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, fully understands form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness. One who fully understands form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness is freed from form…consciousness. He is freed from birth, aging and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure,, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.”
-39(7) In Accordance with the dhamma, Khandavagga, Khandasamyutta, SN


'Practice according to the dhamma' is defined in a few suttas- all talk of revulsion/disenchatnement (nibbida), dispasssion (viraga) and cessation (nirodha) as the path leading to liberation. these are are another way of describing stages of the 16 insight knowledges. So the mahasi system is a good bet even though they dont use yonisomanasikara but direct experience.
With Metta

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby Dhammakid » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:26 pm

rowyourboat,
Fantastic links. Thanks a bunch.

:anjali:
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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:38 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby appicchato » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:55 pm


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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:52 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Sotapanna issues

Postby cooran » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:37 pm

Hello acinteyyo, all,

Stream Entry is the hardest of attainments as, after this attainment all the rest are reached in not more than seven lifetimes.
We have wandered in Sa.msara during beginningless time and very few of us have attained to even mundane right view, let alone Supramundane Right View.

Right View: The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary
Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli Edited and Revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.abhidhamma.org/r_view00.htm

lokuttara
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/lokuttara.htm
ariya-puggala
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ ... uggala.htm

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---


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