your take on nibbana

[alan...]

it seems like there are some different ideas. what are yours?

how do you define it? what is it like? what does it mean?

[alan...]

it seems to me there is seeing not self, which, if seen in the deepest way possible, could be defined as nibbana. i have experienced a minor version of this in a momentary form while in jhana (i am NOT saying i'm enlightened! i'm just talking about a temporary mind state), and i believe that if this became permanent it would be the end of suffering. after all if there is no self, there is no one to die, and you could call that "deathless" which is one of the many synonyms given by gotama for nibbana.

then there's the mind expanding joyous revelation of oneness with the universe. i've also experienced this (again totally temporary, not saying i'm enlightened. i'm not.), while out for a walk once and practicing mindfulness, for about thirty minutes, i felt total oneness with the universe and again, i thought if this was permanent it would be the end of suffering.

these are the two i can think of. i suppose they could be part of the same thing, or follow each other as separate revelations that make up a whole.

interestingly neither of these directly relate to how beings fare after death or rebirth.

is the jhana experience of knowing past lives and all that a necessary part of enlightenment? as far as i know it is not, i believe (but i could be wrong) that i've seen it called mundane knowledge. does this mean that a person could be fully enlightened with no direct knowledge of these things? i think so. if someone is totally ego-less and does not suffer, i think they have reached the other shore regardless of their knowledge of what happens outside of this immediate reality. one could reasonably escape samsara without directly seeing it's confines and mechanics. of course the illusion of self is one of the mechanics of samsara, possibly THE mechanic of samsara, so maybe it covers everything. it is the last fetter to be broken after all.

oddly enough, and i'm sure i'm wrong about this, i felt that the oneness with the universe revelation felt exactly the way the zen masters of history have explained satori! in fact there were a bunch of different quotes, that i had not understood before, that came to mind when i was having this experience and they all suddenly made sense. not only that some taoist ideas made sense, ideas i had not only not understood but that i had dismissed as bordering on non-sense. so now i'm thinking: is this taoist enlightenment? or rather actualizing "the way"? then i had my experience with not self in jhana and i was thinking this sounds more like the suttas, perhaps this is buddhist enlightenment?

the first not self knowledge thing seemed like a deep knowing, like waking up from a nightmare and realizing you're in your bed and everything is fine. casting off a heavy load of stress and worry. it felt largely cognitive, like i was clearly thinking it out. not that it was just intellectual inference of not self, that's easy, it was literal knowledge, just very cerebral (and certainly temporary).

the oneness with the universe thing on the other hand, was like realizing you are dreaming when you are in a dream. everything was utter bliss, i was filled with pure joy, freedom and peace. it seemed like the options were limitless. it was overwhelming. i felt like the illusion that the world is a problem for me and is separate from me had been shattered (albeit temporarily).

naturally these ramblings of mine should mean nothing much. i'm just talking and sharing my experiences, however trivial and nonsensical as they may be. and again, after having these experiences i went right back to being a regular working stiff, suffering and all. however i now have a little thought in the back of my mind at all times that it's all in my head. like a teeny tiny crack in a wall where light shines into darkness making me know i'm on the right path. sotapatti? certainly not! but a guide post letting me know i'm on the right path at the very least. funny that we can get so far and still... what does the buddha call it? "back sliding". although usually i think he's talking about bad behavior and precept breaking when he says that. still i feel that if i was ordained or something and could just keep practicing these states would be more frequent and last longer. as it is i back slide back into all the worries and responsibilities of a poor lay person.

[cooran]

Hello alan, all,

I understand you wish to have a discussion with members on their current understanding of Nibbana - but, for reference, I'll include these sermons by Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda on the topic:

THE MIND STILLED – 33 Sermons on Nibbāna - Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
The present set of thirty-three sermons on the topic of Nibbāna were originally delivered between 1988 and 1991 as fortnightly lectures at Meetirigala Forest Monastery of Sri Lanka by the Venerable Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda at the behest of the Venerable Mātara Sri Ñāṇarāma Mahāthera. They combine deep insight into the Dhamma with academic erudition, being based on copious quotations from the Pāli discourses that alternate with illustrative similes and useful indications for meditation practice.
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... dstilled33

with metta
Chris

[alan...]

Hello alan, all,

I understand you wish to have a discussion with members on their current understanding of Nibbana - but, for reference, I'll include these sermons by Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda on the topic:

THE MIND STILLED – 33 Sermons on Nibbāna - Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
The present set of thirty-three sermons on the topic of Nibbāna were originally delivered between 1988 and 1991 as fortnightly lectures at Meetirigala Forest Monastery of Sri Lanka by the Venerable Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda at the behest of the Venerable Mātara Sri Ñāṇarāma Mahāthera. They combine deep insight into the Dhamma with academic erudition, being based on copious quotations from the Pāli discourses that alternate with illustrative similes and useful indications for meditation practice.
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... dstilled33

with metta
Chris

thanks!

[Aloka]

Hi alan,

This is an excerpt from Ajahn Sumedho's introduction to the book "The Island. An Anthology of The Buddha's Teachings on Nibbana" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro,(available from Forest Sangha Publications) which you might find helpful.

"A difficulty with the word nibbana is that its meaning is beyond the power of words to describe. It is, essentially, undefinable.

Another difficulty is that many Buddhists see nibbana (Sanskrit:nirvana) as something unobtainable—as so high and so
remote that we’re not worthy enough to try for it. Or we see nibbana as a goal, as an unknown, undefined something that we should somehow try to attain.

Most of us are conditioned in this way. We want to achieve or attain something that we don’t have. So nibbana is looked at as something that if you work hard, keep the sila (moral precepts), meditate diligently, become a monastic, devote your life to practice, then your reward might be that eventually you attain nibbana—even though you’re not sure what it is.

Ajahn Chah would use the words “the reality of nongrasping” as the definition for nibbana: realizing the reality of nongrasping. That helps to put it in a context, because the emphasis is on awakening to how we grasp and hold on even to words like “nibbana” or “Buddhism” or “practice” or “sila” or whatever."

Continued at link :

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books11/Ajahn_Sumedho_Nirvana_Now.pdf

with kind wishes

Aloka

[Yana]

is the jhana experience of knowing past lives and all that a necessary part of enlightenment? as far as i know it is not, i believe (but i could be wrong) that i've seen it called mundane knowledge. does this mean that a person could be fully enlightened with no direct knowledge of these things? i think so.

Hi Alan,

No it is not necessary part of enlightenment.Every knowledge except realizing Nibbanna is mundane knowledge including the ability to recollect previous lives.Realizing Nibbanna would be a supermundane state with the complete extinction of suffering.

In this case,there are two types of Arahants.One that posses supernormal abilities such as recollecting past lives,mind reading, etc (still mundane though) and one that doesn't.

This is like ordering a hamburger.One comes with a red napkin the other comes with a white napkin.but who cares right ...as long as you get the hamburger and something to wipe your fingers with.

Answering your original question: What is Nibbanna Like?

Well,I don't know what it's like but I know what it's Not like.I know it's Not suffering.That's about it really, i can't really tell til i actually realize it.So here i am meditating.

[DAWN]

Nibbana from pali = 'tail off' ?

[tiltbillings]

Nibbana from pali = 'tail off' ?

Making stuff up again?

[DAWN]

Nibbana from pali = 'tail off' ?

Making stuff up again?

Actually not.
I heared just that litteraly traduction of word Nibbana (Nirvana) is 'tail off', the extinguishing of a fire .

It was a question about litteral traduction of word Nibbana.

PS: good solution - Accestoinsight glossary :

nibbāna [Skt. nirvāna]:Liberation; literally, the "unbinding" of the mind from the mental effluents (see āsava), defilements (see kilesa), and the round of rebirth (see vaṭṭa), and from all that can be described or defined. As this term also denotes the extinguishing of a fire, it carries the connotations of stilling, cooling, and peace. (According to the physics taught at the time of the Buddha, a burning fire seizes or adheres to its fuel; when extinguished, it is unbound.) "Total nibbāna" in some contexts denotes the experience of Awakening; in others, the final passing away of an arahant. [MORE]

[tiltbillings]

Nibbana from pali = 'tail off' ?

Making stuff up again?

Actually not.
I heared just that litteraly traduction of word Nibbana (Nirvana) is 'tail off', the extinguishing of a fire .

Traduction? You mean translation, and "tail off" is obviously an idiom, but it is not one with which I am familiar.

It was a question about litteral traduction of word Nibbana.

PS: good solution - Accestoinsight glossary :

nibbāna [Skt. nirvāna]:Liberation; literally, the "unbinding" of the mind from the mental effluents (see āsava), defilements (see kilesa), and the round of rebirth (see vaṭṭa), and from all that can be described or defined. As this term also denotes the extinguishing of a fire, it carries the connotations of stilling, cooling, and peace. (According to the physics taught at the time of the Buddha, a burning fire seizes or adheres to its fuel; when extinguished, it is unbound.) "Total nibbāna" in some contexts denotes the experience of Awakening; in others, the final passing away of an arahant. [MORE]

Okay.

[DAWN]

Okay.

Oh! I am sorry, translation.

Actually i was surprised that Google translator http://translate.google.fr/ , when i ask him to translate the french word "s'etaindre" - 'extinguishing' http://translate.google.fr/#fr/en/s'%C3%A9teindre he translated it like : "tail out"

[tiltbillings]

Okay.

Oh! I am sorry, translation.

Actually i was surprised that Google translator http://translate.google.fr/ , when i ask him to translate the french word "s'etaindre" - 'extinguishing' http://translate.google.fr/#fr/en/s'%C3%A9teindre he translated it like : "tail out"

I did not know that the Google translator was a "he." I always thought of it as an "it." I suppose its/his name is George.

[polarbuddha101]

Okay.

Oh! I am sorry, translation.

Actually i was surprised that Google translator http://translate.google.fr/ , when i ask him to translate the french word "s'etaindre" - 'extinguishing' http://translate.google.fr/#fr/en/s'%C3%A9teindre he translated it like : "tail out"

I did not know that the Google translator was a "he." I always thought of it as an "it." I suppose its/his name is George.

Don't forget the importance of gender in European languages where pronouns for he and she can also mean it. In German, er is he, sie is she, es is it but all of them can mean it because certain words are masculine or feminine in the language even if the word refers to a referent that in english would be gender neutral. The same is true of languages such as french and spanish and I'm sure many others, so I'm not sure what your point is here. It is pretty clear that Dawn is not a fluent speaker/writer of english so what is the point you are trying to make?

[tiltbillings]

It is pretty clear that Dawn is not a fluent speaker/writer of english so what is the point you are trying to make?

I know; I am simply making a funny (or at least trying to). I am well aware of gender issues in European languages. "Translator" -- aistritheoir in Irish -- is masculine, so George seemed more or less appropriate. (I did not have time see what the Irish equivalent of George is.)

[polarbuddha101]

It is pretty clear that Dawn is not a fluent speaker/writer of english so what is the point you are trying to make?

I know; I am simply making a funny (or at least trying to). I am well aware of gender issues in European languages. "Translator" -- aistritheoir in Irish -- is masculine, so George seemed more or less appropriate. (I did not have time see what the Irish equivalent of George is.)

My bad, your intention was lost in transcription, one of the unfortunate aspects I've found in written communication between physically unacquainted individuals.

Metta,

Andrew

[DAWN]

A translator have no less identity than an human, perharps even more .. but actualy no, humain DNA have much more information than a translator

[drifting cloud]

I don't know if it makes much sense to discuss one's "take" on nibbana if one has not attained nibbana.

I will be happy to get back to you when I have attained it. This may take me a few lifetimes.

In the meantime, this is how it was described by one who attained it:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32

[Dan74]

I don't know if it makes much sense to discuss one's "take" on nibbana if one has not attained nibbana.

I will be happy to get back to you when I have attained it. This may take me a few lifetimes.

In the meantime, this is how it was described by one who attained it:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32

Yes, I agree. I admit I do have ideas about nibbana but I try not to put much stock into them. Even if my words perfectly match the scriptures my understanding won't.

It is tempting to map some powerful meditation experiences onto nibbana but they may just be an distant echo of the real deal or worse, a fantasy.

[DAWN]

And if there is a clear knowledge that was arise in me : "it's liberated".
Should i concider it like Nibbana attainement?

[Kusala]

it seems like there are some different ideas. what are yours?

how do you define it? what is it like? what does it mean?

Nirvana is unconditional freedom.