Fairness

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fairness

Post by Kim OHara »

danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not going to.
This a slippery slope to accusing me of Trolling, which I dislike strongly.

I'm not arguing. I'm discussing.

Look at it from a corroborating angle. "Fairness" and "equality" are forms of conceit by virtue of their relationship to the defilements of delusion and hate.
Okay, if you are interested in a genuine discussion I'm willing to participate.
But I have to start by disagreeing with you: fairness and equality are not conceit and have no necessary relationship to conceit. And, going back to your previous post, "pride (conceit)" does not necessarily follow "from believing "fairness" is universally accepted as the same thing in all minds." It seems to me that those two statements could only be made by someone who sees everything through the lens of the self.
Your first post in this thread implicitly proposed (if only as a question) that the Golden Rule was in conflict with the Dhamma. I don't think it is, and I don't think that the teachings on conceit have any real connection to the Golden Rule. If you believe they have, I would like you to show the links that form the connection.

:namaste:
Kim
danieLion
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Re: Fairness

Post by danieLion »

Kim O'Hara wrote:...going back to your previous post, "pride (conceit)" does not necessarily follow "from believing "fairness" is universally accepted as the same thing in all minds."
That's true. Conceit also relates to believing in superiority and inferiority.
Kim O'Hara wrote:It seems to me that those two statements could only be made by someone who sees everything through the lens of the self.
Conceit is also related to clinging to doctrines of self, so this is likely true too, to the extent that we allow it's probably not everything that's seen through the lense of a self.
Kim O'Hara wrote:Your first post in this thread implicitly proposed (if only as a question) that the Golden Rule was in conflict with the Dhamma. I don't think it is, and I don't think that the teachings on conceit have any real connection to the Golden Rule.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I'm not sure if the Dhamma and the Golden Rule are in conflict. I hope not. I like the Golden Rule. What I actually think is that "equality" and "fairness" (especially "justice as fairness") are in conflict with the Dhamma--and with the Golden Rule too but in a limited way: the Golden Rule as a propositon can only be asserted by someone who sees at least some things through the lense of the self.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fairness

Post by Kim OHara »

danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Your first post in this thread implicitly proposed (if only as a question) that the Golden Rule was in conflict with the Dhamma. I don't think it is, and I don't think that the teachings on conceit have any real connection to the Golden Rule.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I'm not sure if the Dhamma and the Golden Rule are in conflict. I hope not. I like the Golden Rule. What I actually think is that "equality" and "fairness" (especially "justice as fairness") are in conflict with the Dhamma--and with the Golden Rule too but in a limited way: the Golden Rule as a propositon can only be asserted by someone who sees at least some things through the lense of the self.
Ahah! Now I think I see where we parted company.
How are equality, fairness or justice (or all three) in conflict with the dhamma?
I would say they are not. In fact, I would count them as a constant background to the teachings, generally taken for granted.
You, I think, would say (1) that they are inevitably tied to conceit and (2) that conceit is in conflict with the dhamma - and I wouldn't dispute (2) but I would deny (1).
Does that advance the discussion, or have I still misinterpreted you?

:namaste:
Kim
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DAWN
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Re: Fairness

Post by DAWN »

Samsara is the most fair 'element'.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
danieLion
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Re: Fairness

Post by danieLion »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Your first post in this thread implicitly proposed (if only as a question) that the Golden Rule was in conflict with the Dhamma. I don't think it is, and I don't think that the teachings on conceit have any real connection to the Golden Rule.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I'm not sure if the Dhamma and the Golden Rule are in conflict. I hope not. I like the Golden Rule. What I actually think is that "equality" and "fairness" (especially "justice as fairness") are in conflict with the Dhamma--and with the Golden Rule too but in a limited way: the Golden Rule as a propositon can only be asserted by someone who sees at least some things through the lense of the self.
Ahah! Now I think I see where we parted company.
How are equality, fairness or justice (or all three) in conflict with the dhamma?
I would say they are not. In fact, I would count them as a constant background to the teachings, generally taken for granted.
You, I think, would say (1) that they are inevitably tied to conceit and (2) that conceit is in conflict with the dhamma - and I wouldn't dispute (2) but I would deny (1).
Does that advance the discussion, or have I still misinterpreted you?

:namaste:
Kim
You've interpreted me correctly and so accurately I don't know if it advances the discussion because it might indicate we've reached an agree to disagree impasse; plus, I kind of feel :broke: but that could just be tempoary.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fairness

Post by Kim OHara »

danieLion wrote:You've interpreted me correctly and so accurately I don't know if it advances the discussion because it might indicate we've reached an agree to disagree impasse; plus, I kind of feel :broke: but that could just be tempoary.
Well, I don't want to push you or anything, but you could try to convince me that (1) is true ...
:thinking:

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KIm
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imagemarie
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Re: Fairness

Post by imagemarie »

Hi

I'd like to learn more too :thinking: .

Is this an argument for "disengaged" Buddhism? Or disengagement generally?
Lest we become attached to outcomes.. for therein lies the conceit?

:anjali:
danieLion
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Re: Fairness

Post by danieLion »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
danieLion wrote:You've interpreted me correctly and so accurately I don't know if it advances the discussion because it might indicate we've reached an agree to disagree impasse; plus, I kind of feel :broke: but that could just be tempoary.
Well, I don't want to push you or anything, but you could try to convince me that (1) is true ...
:thinking:

:namaste:
KIm
Yes. I'll have more later. But I think you've overlooked the strength of what I've said all ready. I cited several examples from the suttas which you not only quickly dismissed but provided no counters to. So, in the interest of fairness (the pragmatic kind), I think you should cite some sutta references that demonstrate that the Buddha believed in what we moderns call "fairness."

Fair enough?
Last edited by danieLion on Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
danieLion
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Re: Fairness

Post by danieLion »

imagemarie wrote:Is this an argument for "disengaged" Buddhism? Or disengagement generally?
No. Fairness is prgamatically important, but as an idea is rooted in defilement.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fairness

Post by Kim OHara »

danieLion wrote:Yes. I'll have more later. But I think you've overlooked the strength of what I've said all ready. I cited several examples from the suttas which you not only quickly dismissed but provided no counters to. So, in the interest of fairness (the pragmatic kind), I think you should cite some sutta references that demonstrate that the Buddha believed in what we moderns call "fairness."

Fair enough?
Fair enough? In a word, no. :tongue:
More seriously, still no - because every single one of the references you provided was about comparing oneself with others, and in (almost?) every case the conceit this could lead to was cited as the problem. I understand all that and I still say, as I said before, that a teaching against conceit is not a teaching against fairness or equality.
If I give Adam a dollar, it would be fair for me to give Ben a dollar too. Where's the conceit?
If I charge Adam a dollar for a Coke, it would be unfair to charge Ben ten dollars for the same thing. Where's the conceit?
If I think I should pay for my theatre ticket, I think it's fair if my neighbour pays for his theatre ticket. Where's the conceit?
And so on.
Conceit can be (must be? usually is?) founded upon comparisons but I can't see how it can be founded on equality or fairness.

:namaste:
Kim
beeblebrox
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Re: Fairness

Post by beeblebrox »

Hi Kim, I agree with you that rejecting the idea of "superior," "equal," and "inferior" has more to do with discouraging one's comparison with others, than to reject fairness... but one of the examples above seems to be in conflict. It seems like that to think other person should also pay for his ticket (just like you did) would have to be based on conceit? There seems to be a comparison going on here.

:anjali:
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Cittasanto
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Re: Fairness

Post by Cittasanto »

Here are some refferences and thoughts on the matter of fairness within the Buddhas training.
The Buddha often called people fools (particularly in the vinaya directly) not because of them as a person but based on what they do or have done. This is important to remember regarding fairness, because this principle is spelled out in detail if not explicitly within the vinaya directly, and can be inferred via the suttas which deals with more general principles in this area (of fools).
An origin story in the Mahavaga1.4 translated by T.W. RHYS DAVIDS AND HERMANN OLDENBERG wrote:1. Now at that time the Blessed One walked up and down in the open air unshod. Noticing that, 'The Master walks unshod,' the Elders (the Thera Bhikkhus) also went unshod when they were walking up and down 3. But though the Master and the Thera Bhikkhus went unshod, the Khabbaggiya Bhikkhus walked up and down with coverings on their feet.

The temperate Bhikkhus were annoyed, murmured, and became angry, saying, 'How can these Khabbaggiya Bhikkhus walk shod, when the Master and the Thera Bhikkhus walk unshod?'

2. Then those Bhikkhus told this thing to the Blessed One.

'Is it true, what they say, O Bhikkhus, that the Khabbaggiya Bhikkhus walk shod, though the Master and the Elders walk unshod?'

'It is true, Lord.'

The Blessed Buddha rebuked them, saying,

'How, O Bhikkhus, can these foolish persons walk shod, though (&c., as in §§ 1, 2)..
This is a general example of the Buddha finding something out and clarifying what happened, there are numerous examples of this happening. in essence each rule no matter what it was was never declared to be a breach of the principles unless the Monk had been cross examined and had a chance to give his side of the story. there could of been a misrepresentation of some sort somewhere along the lines, and everyone had the same chance to defend themselves and no-ones word was taken just because of their standing.

When rules were laid down the mendicants were expected to keep them no matter who they were, yet there were reasons the rule maybe innapropriate to keep or the perpetrator was not suitable for the "punishment". The first person whom caused a rule to be set up was automatically immune from the punishment the rule carried as they had no clear cut rule to go by, and the principles although potentially clear could nevertheless be in conflict with other principles due to a form of dissonance. Ven. Sudinna is a good example of this. Through compassion for his mother he was persuaded to engage in sex with his former wife to produce offspring for his parents even though it is clear that he had a knowing of how this was inappropriate from his guilt from engaging in the act (see the Introduction to the BMC1).

essentially, and cutting a long story short, the Buddha didn't EXPECT someone to keep something not laid down in plain sight, and everyone was equal in the vinaya with attainment or anything else didn't give someone more power in a vinaya situation than another (prosecution v' defence).

The Buddha can be said to of walked his talk, and not doing so or attempting to do so (i.e. living the mendicant life when one has taken it up) for any reason - other than situational specific allowances accounted for in the non-offense clauses - brings about critisism from the Buddha (even if they are Arahants).
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fairness

Post by Kim OHara »

beeblebrox wrote:Hi Kim, I agree with you that rejecting the idea of "superior," "equal," and "inferior" has more to do with discouraging one's comparison with others, than to reject fairness... but one of the examples above seems to be in conflict. It seems like that to think other person should also pay for his ticket (just like you did) would have to be based on conceit? There seems to be a comparison going on here.

:anjali:
HI, Beeblebrox,
Yes, there's a comparison, but no, there's no conceit ('I am better than them') about it - just 'this rule which applies to me should also apply to others', exactly as in the Vinaya examples Cittasanto so helpfully provided. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
beeblebrox
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Re: Fairness

Post by beeblebrox »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:Hi Kim, I agree with you that rejecting the idea of "superior," "equal," and "inferior" has more to do with discouraging one's comparison with others, than to reject fairness... but one of the examples above seems to be in conflict. It seems like that to think other person should also pay for his ticket (just like you did) would have to be based on conceit? There seems to be a comparison going on here.

:anjali:
HI, Beeblebrox,
Yes, there's a comparison, but no, there's no conceit ('I am better than them') about it - just 'this rule which applies to me should also apply to others', exactly as in the Vinaya examples Cittasanto so helpfully provided. :tongue:

:namaste:
Kim
I paid, so I think he should pay too...

I see loads of conceit... don't forget that "equality" is also one of the ways in which the conceit manifests. I think it's better to have nothing but mudita if the other person got his ticket for free.

:anjali:
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fairness

Post by Kim OHara »

beeblebrox wrote:I paid, so I think he should pay too...

I see loads of conceit... don't forget that "equality" is also one of the ways in which the conceit manifests. I think it's better to have nothing but mudita if the other person got his ticket for free.

:anjali:
Okay, I can see how that self-centred thinking could be going on, but it wasn't at all the way I was thinking about it.
Does the same thing apply to "I got fined for speeding" in your mind? Because to me they are exactly equivalent situations: what's fair for one is fair for all, whether that is to my advantage or not, and even whether I am involved in the comparison or not.

:namaste:
Kim
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