the ethics of lay teachers who charge money

[marc108]

I would be interested to see what the Sayadaw would say if he knew his students were charging 150$ an hour for Meditation lessons!

The more I receive teachings from my (lay) Teacher the more abhorrent I find charging for the Dhamma. My Teacher has not even -mentioned- Dana to me, he's instructed, given phone, email and in person interviews as well as weekly sittings and monthly day longs completely free with no strings attached... In fact he pays a large portion of the cost of renting our building himself!

[Hanzze]

As it is often about "while living on the food offered by the faithful..." I guess the wrong livelihood for Bhikkhus (recluses and brahmins) might be very related to this.

Ven. Sayadaw would not say much, he had declared such things very often already. One can not change others.

[LonesomeYogurt]

I find the whole idea of lay teachers a little weird - it seems to me that if you want to make a livelihood out of teaching the Dhamma, you should become a monk. To my knowledge, the idea of a "lay teacher" who makes cash off teaching and guiding retreats is a totally western, capitalistic invention. There are tons of great lay teachers out there, but I think that it does have the side-effect of making monasticism seem unnecessary or even unideal.

Just my two cents.

[Hanzze]

if you want to make a livelihood out of teaching the Dhamma, you should become a monk

Dear LonesomeYogurt,

That one would not be different to a layman teacher you like to critice. Dhamma is something given freely without strings. When ever there is a dependency (food for teaching) the teaching would be not clean and free as it should be.

A Monks task is not to teach. A Monk who teaches does it out of compassion and nothing else.

So a compassionated motivation would be, frist being free of defilements by one self, independent from desire and then able to teach.

How ever, everybody would find his teacher or his pupils in dependency of his karmic possibilities. There is nothing wrong on the journey to the path, as long the journey is not called (mistaken) as the path.

[marc108]

Video: Selling the Dharma
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2012/11/vi ... -container


gotta love it... self-righteous justification for selling the Dhamma! please also read the last bit of comments where Vince Horn justifies charging 50-100$ an hour for meditation instruction by saying the Dana-based teaching structure is a 'fundamentalist, literalist interpretation'

[Cittasanto]

Video: Selling the Dharma
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2012/11/vi ... -container


gotta love it... self-righteous justification for selling the Dhamma! please also read the last bit of comments where Vince Horn justifies charging 50-100$ an hour for meditation instruction by saying the Dana-based teaching structure is a 'fundamentalist, literalist interpretation'

I got to 5:54 and turned off.
that vince fellow obviously doesn't understand the beauty of non-preformance.

[David N. Snyder]

We live in the information age. As my son recently put it, "information is no longer a commodity." We live in an age with quick and easy access to information with the internet, wikipedia, Access to Insight, Dhamma Wiki, Dhamma Wheel, and numerous other sites offering information and instruction and access to the Suttas at no charge.

As a result, the lay teachers and centers charging exorbitant fees may find fewer and fewer customers over time. There is certainly nothing wrong with charging for facilities such as room and board, meals, etc, but the high fees for simply information about the Dhamma? That appears to cross a line that the Buddha did not want crossed. And perhaps the information age will take care of that and the allure of paying high prices for it will fade away.

[carlosm]

Video: Selling the Dharma
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2012/11/vi ... -container


gotta love it... self-righteous justification for selling the Dhamma! please also read the last bit of comments where Vince Horn justifies charging 50-100$ an hour for meditation instruction by saying the Dana-based teaching structure is a 'fundamentalist, literalist interpretation'

that's a really disturbing video :-/

[SamKR]

Come, give me money and only then I will teach you how to get rid of your greed...
Something doesn't sound quite right.

[dhammaprotectors]

What about monastic organisations or sangha asking directly for donations for their so-called charity projects instead of by way of dana?

What about Ajahn Brahm asking for a fixed upfront money to participate to bid in an auction sale to book him ("Ajahn Brahm for sale")?
Is this right livelihood of monastic although it says it's for raising fund for his bhikkhunis sangha?
Cannot help thinking why a Bhikkhu Sangha is involving in the affairs of a Bhikkhuni Sangha & why is the money donating to a Bhikkhu Sangha and not directly to the Nun monastery?
Why is Ajahn Brahm in control of the Bhikkhuni Sangha & their affairs? It's complicated.

Find it indeed shocking that monastic is allowed to do such thing.
Isn't their authority the Dhamma Vinaya and is this not against the Vinaya or the spirit of dana?

Any thoughts on this?

[polarbuddha101]

There's a whole thread on that issue dhammaprotector

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16465&start=0

[reflection]

Haha, awesome.

[dhammaprotectors]

There's a whole thread on that issue dhammaprotector

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16465&start=0

Thanks. (Noted).

[marc108]

Ajahn Brahm is clearly the frontman because the Bhikkhunis want it.

This is not comparing apples to apples. The amount of Dhamma teaching Ajahn Brahm has put out into the world
Is perhaps unmatched in a thousand years. Ajahn Brahm isnt charging for his teachings. He isn't trying to fund himself or his own monastery, he's trying to fund the Bhikkhuni Sanga. This isn't the same as charging 150$/hour for meditation lessons.

[tiltbillings]

Just a note: This thread will not be for re-litigating the Ajahn Brahm for sale question.

[alan...]

the buddha and his disciples and so on and so on never charged so much as a single masaka so...

[manas]

Zom, Pilgrim,
Idealism doesn't fill bellies.
If a teacher starves, he can no longer teach.


Kim

This/isnt/about/idealism.
The/Buddha/said/that/Dhamma/is/to/be/given/as/a/gift,
NOT/bought/and/sold/like/a/commodity.
It/was/given/freely/to/humanity/by/the/Buddha
so/he/has/the/right/to/expect/that/from/us.
Its/not/ours/to/sell;/nor/can/we/make/any/claim/of/discovery:
only/the/Buddha/can/make/that/claim,/not/us.

If/a/lay/teacher/needs/to/support/their/life
nothing/is/stopping/them/from/working/at/a/job.
As/for/Dhamma/instruction,
it/would/be/acceptable/if/a/student,/out/of/gratitude,
gave/of/their/own/free/will
and/that/lay/teacher/then/accepted/it;
but/to/REQUIRE/payment/ie/charge/is/not/correct!

metta/

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Well said, manas.



Metta,
Retro.

[Nyorai]

If you had achieved a stage of considering yourself having the ability to impart wisdom teaching of Buddhism, means one is able to live simply and moderately with ultimate joys of basic foods and simple shelter. There is no reason to charge for meditation lesson as this is inherent quality of all. The generous sharing and teaching of true dharma will develop even more insightfully beyond materialism. If the condition is not favorable to share with minimum expenses or without donor, there is no requirement to set up meditation class. Most essentially is to keep an extremely low cost so that everyone can enjoy and experience their inherent peace. The most favorable buddhism institution for meditation is those that does not charge a single cent as it does not give rise to any burden and welcome even the pauper to experience their own joys of meditation. There is nothing most precious than assisting anyone to become buddha

“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.”
― Gautama Buddha

[alan...]

Zom, Pilgrim,
Idealism doesn't fill bellies.
If a teacher starves, he can no longer teach.


Kim

This/isnt/about/idealism.
The/Buddha/said/that/Dhamma/is/to/be/given/as/a/gift,
NOT/bought/and/sold/like/a/commodity.
It/was/given/freely/to/humanity/by/the/Buddha
so/he/has/the/right/to/expect/that/from/us.
Its/not/ours/to/sell;/nor/can/we/make/any/claim/of/discovery:
only/the/Buddha/can/make/that/claim,/not/us.

If/a/lay/teacher/needs/to/support/their/life
nothing/is/stopping/them/from/working/at/a/job.
As/for/Dhamma/instruction,
it/would/be/acceptable/if/a/student,/out/of/gratitude,
gave/of/their/own/free/will
and/that/lay/teacher/then/accepted/it;
but/to/REQUIRE/payment/ie/charge/is/not/correct!

metta/

is my computer not coding correctly or is this written with hundreds of back slashes interspersed between the words???


anyway. getting money by donation is totally legit, even if it's strongly suggested. the only time i see a problem is if it's a standard business style transaction: "pay X amount of dollars for X amount of dhamma. no money means no dhamma for you!"

that's not okay.

but even if a teacher strongly hinted that they needed money: "i'm really short on cash these days..." i would probably just give them some as long as they didn't say or imply that they would refuse teaching if they didn't receive payment. if i could walk out and return again for more lessons without paying, i would donate some money. however if they blatantly said that they would not teach if they were not paid i would walk away without giving it second thought. i'm pretty sure there's even sutta support where the buddha (or some important canonical figure) clearly states that the dhamma should not be charged for.