vipassana craziness

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:With respect Tilt I think you really need to go back and read over what I actually said. Have I said something that is not correct?
If you are saying that Goenka or Mahasi Sayadaw are out of line with the Theravada and the teachings of the Buddha, then yes, you have said something quite incorrect.

Well I never even mentioned Mahasi Sayadaw.
Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby marc108 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:44 pm

Mr Man wrote:The format and technique do not come from the suttas.



even hardline Sutta-based teachers like Taan Geoff say that Goenkas sweeping techniques are in line with the Buddhas approach to meditation... ardency, mindfulness and alertness. although i dont know much about the format and theories, or anything beyond the technique it self.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html
"In a "scanning" or "body sweep" practice, mindfulness means remembering to stick with the process of scanning the body, while alertness would mean seeing the subtle sensations of the body being scanned. Ardency would mean sticking with the scanning process and trying to be ever more sensitive to the subtlest sensations. As in the previous case, these activities are related to factors of jhāna, and the process, if conducted in line with the texts, should culminate in a state of full-bodied singleness, at which time the motion of the scanning can be brought to stillness, and the mind can enter deeper concentration."
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.

Wrong about what?
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:20 pm

MM wrote:
tilt wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Well I never even mentioned Mahasi Sayadaw.
Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.

Wrong about what?
That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:34 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.

Okay. I don't think that the Buddha taught the "technique" and format that is used by Goenka, which is not a problem in and of itself. I don't think Goenka's organization can be considered to be mainstream Theravada. It is it's own little subgroup to my mind. And more distinct than many of the other subgroups
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:36 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.

Okay. I don't think that the Buddha taught the "technique" and format that is used by Goenka, which is not a problem in and of itself. I don't think Goenka's organization can be considered to be mainstream Theravada. It is it's own little subgroup to my mind. And more distinct than many of the other subgroups
To your mind.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:51 am

Tilt, do you think the Buddha taught the "technique"?

To support my view that Goenka's organization is not mainstream Theravada have a look at their website:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml

Do you think Goenkaji perceives his organization to be part of the wider Theravada community?
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:29 am

Mr Man wrote:Tilt, do you think the Buddha taught the "technique"?
The Buddha taught no technique, which is why there are various differing techniques developed to put the Buddha's teachings into practice.

To support my view that Goenka's organization is not mainstream Theravada have a look at their website:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml
And who are you trying to convince here?

Do you think Goenkaji perceives his organization to be part of the wider Theravada community?
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha taught no technique

Ahh so you agree with me?

And who are you trying to convince here?
I'm not trying to convince anyone.

You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
Well in my experience the organization does not embrace it. I've heard the students are not encouraged to sit with practioners from outside their tradition + or visit instutions from outside their tradition.

Tilt are you a student of Goenka?
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:22 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha taught no technique

Ahh so you agree with me?
It is an interesting question as to what the Buddha taught. Every teacher, or every "independent" practitioner, is going to develop their own, or adopt and adapt other peoples', techniques in response to what they understand the Buddha's teachings to be.

[
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
Well in my experience the organization does not embrace it. I've heard the students are not encouraged to sit with practioners from outside their tradition + or visit instutions from outside their tradition.
Yes and no, but the Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/

Tilt are you a student of Goenka?
Nope, but I know people who are.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:30 am

DAWN wrote:Actually, IMO , in long meditation sitting, it's not a mental activity, but a bodily pain what is realy difficult. :rolleye:


I use a comfy chair these days, it's much more practical. :tongue:
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby daverupa » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It is an interesting question as to what the Buddha taught. Every teacher, or every "independent" practitioner, is going to develop their own, or adopt and adapt other peoples', techniques in response to what they understand the Buddha's teachings to be.


On that note:

MN 101 wrote:And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.


MN 57 wrote:"What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:40 pm

So he exerts a fabrication against
It will be worth the effort to look at the Pali of this and other translations.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/

From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:43 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/

From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/
It is sad. Also, I hoped that you saw something else from that link.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/

From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/
It is sad. Also, I hoped that you saw something else from that link.


Yes. Lots of positive stuff.
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Monkey Mind » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:03 am

Mr. Goenka wrote a book about the Sattipathana Sutta. He reviews the Sutta line by line, and describes how the U Bha Khin technique derives from the Sutta. He openly admits that there are other interpretations of the Sutta, and goes so far as to explain why his organization favors the interpretations they use. This manual, combined with "Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization" by Analayo, really helped quell any doubts I had about this technique.

There are some other aspects of his techniques that scholars could argue with on academic grounds. Mr. Goenka places a lot of emphasis on the "paramis", which was probably a teaching that came after the Buddha (but still widely accepted in many branches of the Theravada). His teachings about sankhara are hotly debated in other sections of this forum. But neither of these teachings are central to the technique, nor are they unusual for Buddhism as it exists in that part of the world. (Or so I have heard...)

http://store.pariyatti.org/Mahasatipatt ... _1734.html

"Mahasatipatthana Sutta Book Great Discourse on the Establishing of Awareness - ... This annotated translation of the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, the primary discourse in which the Buddha describes the practice of meditation in detail, is intended for use in the meditation courses on the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta as taught by S.N. Goenka. It will be of interest to any serious student of meditation or of the Buddha's teaching. The sutta text is in Roman-script Pāli, with English translation, introductory article and notes."
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Mr Man » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:05 am

Monkey Mind, It's not just the "technique" as such but the emphasis on the "technique" and structure, which I think are worth exploring. Also I find Ideas like "Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface" (from the OP) odd.

One ot the things I really liked about U Ba Khin tradition retreats was the feeling that I was really doing work.
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby convivium » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:09 am

even hardline Sutta-based teachers like Taan Geoff say that Goenkas sweeping techniques are in line with the Buddhas approach to meditation... ardency, mindfulness and alertness. although i dont know much about the format and theories, or anything beyond the technique it self.

it's strange that you would mention ajahn thanissaro as a justification for goenka. he would never recommend goenka retreats to anyone.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: vipassana craziness

Postby Ben » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:52 am

Mr Man wrote:One ot the things I really liked about U Ba Khin tradition retreats was the feeling that I was really doing work.

And what is the difference between U Ba Khin (IMC) tradition retreats and SN Goenka tradition retreats?
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