Kamma and Anicca

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Kamma and Anicca

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:14 pm

Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this

Is kamma the cause of anicca?

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?




Metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:06 pm

I'm certainly no expert but I wouldn't say kamma is the cause of anicca per se. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are just how things are, irrespective of volition.

I might, of course, be wrong :)
Mawkish1983
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:59 pm

clw_uk wrote:Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this


According to the suttas sickness might be the result of kamma, but it might not be. Everything that happens to us is not always kamma.

Is kamma the cause of anicca?


No.

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?


No.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19309
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:18 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm certainly no expert but I wouldn't say kamma is the cause of anicca per se. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are just how things are, irrespective of volition.

I might, of course, be wrong :)



So we all might be, but you certainly are not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19309
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:12 pm

Thanks both :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:39 am

clw_uk wrote:Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this

Is kamma the cause of anicca?

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?


Where are these ideas coming from?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19309
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby appicchato » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:25 am

clw_uk wrote:...a result of kamma (as well as ageing?)...


Irrespective of the volitional actions we choose to make in life...skillful, unskillful, or otherwise...we're still going to age...
User avatar
appicchato
 
Posts: 1576
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby Mawkish1983 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:02 pm

appicchato wrote:...we're still going to age...

Such is the nature of the marks of existence/dhamma seals.

I was recently asked 'why is there suffering?'. I explained about tanha and the four noble truthes, but that wasn't what the questionner was asking. They wanted to know why suffering as an objective concept should exist at all (they were Christians and so had their own theories about a god punishing for original sin etc, which still avoids the question as far as I can tell but I didn't fancy going into theology with this asker). In the end, when asked 'why is there suffering' I had to answer, 'there just is' (first noble truth). I explained that the reason isn't important, the erradication of suffering is the important bit but they couldn't accept that.

Anyway, just thought I'd share :)
Mawkish1983
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:27 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this

Is kamma the cause of anicca?

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?


Where are these ideas coming from?



I was listening to a talk by Ven. Munindo that went into discussion on rebirth as a deva etc and it got me thinking how in that cosmology kamma seems to drive change through passing away and being reborn so I posted here to see if that is the cause but on reflection i can see how other factors come into play there

metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:12 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:I was recently asked 'why is there suffering?'. I explained about tanha and the four noble truthes, but that wasn't what the questionner was asking. They wanted to know why suffering as an objective concept should exist at all

One might as well ask why color or temperature or smell exist at all. There is no why other than the answer you already gave: craving. Suffering exists because of craving. If there was no craving then there would be no suffering. Period.

I agree that answering "why does X concept exist?" with "because G-d wills it to be so" is really no answer at all since the obvious follow up question ("why does G-d exist") doesn't ever get answered.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm


Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests