What is embryo thinking?

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom
SarathW
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What is embryo thinking?

Postby SarathW » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:47 pm

The human in embryo stage (say first week) haven’t developed six senses. (at least five senses) The reference in regard to embryo in teaching is to say that “O’monk, Radiant is this consciousness “. What is the meaning of this statement by Buddha.

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DAWN
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:59 am

In my opinion, embryo thinking looks like : Pip.....pip......pip......
Some electric activity.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:24 am

:o :)

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:03 am

As to your question, what's meant with "radiant consciousness", this here will surely cast some light on it:

Mind like fire unbound
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Yana » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:36 am

SarathW wrote:The human in embryo stage (say first week) haven’t developed six senses. (at least five senses) The reference in regard to embryo in teaching is to say that “O’monk, Radiant is this consciousness “. What is the meaning of this statement by Buddha.


Hi Sarath W,

I am sorry but I am not sure what you are trying to ask.Please forgive me :anjali:

Do you want to know Radiant Consciousness means?Annapurna has given a link.

or

If it's possible for an embryo to" experience radiant consciousness" if the five senses haven't been developed yet..?

i think they should.I mean consciousness is the one being relinked when rebirth takes place (relinking consciousness).. but "thinking" falls under perception and that's okay because it's all part of the mind which i think is present, soo i think embryo's can think..maybe even before they become an embryo.. about what they wanna become (becoming) hehe don't know:tongue:

:anjali:
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby equilibrium » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:03 pm

SarathW wrote:The human in embryo stage (say first week) haven’t developed six senses. (at least five senses) The reference in regard to embryo in teaching is to say that “O’monk, Radiant is this consciousness “. What is the meaning of this statement by Buddha.

Does consciousness depend on the five senses?....can consciousness not exist alone?.....is it not possible that consciousness already exist but as we are not ready (as per the example above) that we are not aware of it?

Do spirits and ghost have consciousness yet they have no senses?
When one dies and gets cremated by the fire, does one "feel" the heat and pain, the brain is still there.....is there consciousness?

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:17 pm

equilibrium wrote:Does consciousness depend on the five senses?..

each kind of consciousness depends on the particular sense-base... see MN18
MN18 wrote:Madhupindika Sutta: Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]...

equilibrium wrote:..can consciousness not exist alone?

nope...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby beeblebrox » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:53 pm

equilibrium wrote:....can consciousness not exist alone?.....is it not possible that consciousness already exist but as we are not ready (as per the example above) that we are not aware of it?


If there is such a consciousness, what would it be conscious of?

If everything... then that means it's dependent. (I.e., not alone.)
If nothing... then I don't think that could be called a consciousness. (Why use the word for such a thing?)
If just a certain thing... that still means it's dependent.

Do spirits and ghost have consciousness yet they have no senses?


If there is a consciousness, then that means there is at least a contact with something, according to the dependent origination. It's just that they don't have a form... at least not in the concrete sense that we know.

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby DAWN » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:02 pm

equilibrium wrote:
SarathW wrote:The human in embryo stage (say first week) haven’t developed six senses. (at least five senses) The reference in regard to embryo in teaching is to say that “O’monk, Radiant is this consciousness “. What is the meaning of this statement by Buddha.

Does consciousness depend on the five senses?....can consciousness not exist alone?.....is it not possible that consciousness already exist but as we are not ready (as per the example above) that we are not aware of it?

Do spirits and ghost have consciousness yet they have no senses?
When one dies and gets cremated by the fire, does one "feel" the heat and pain, the brain is still there.....is there consciousness?


DN 14 (M. Walshe)
The Great discourse on the Lineage:

And then the Bodhisatta Vipassi thought: "With what being present, does consciosness occur. What conditions consciousness?" And then, as result of wisdom born of profound concideration, the realisation dawned on him: "Mind-and-body (namarupa) conditions consciousness"
...
Mind-and-body conditions consciosness and consciousness conditions mind-and-body, mind-and-body conditions the six sense-bases, the six sense-bases-condition contact, contact conditions feeling, feeling conditions craving, craving conditions clinging, clinging conditions becoming, becoming conditions birth, birth conditions ageing and death, sorrow, lamenation, pain, grief and distress.


From this declaration we can see that consciousness is conditioned by namarupa, and embryo is namarupa.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:37 pm

Thanks all. My queston is whether embryo can think.

For further information please refer to page 329 of the link below.
I hope this clarify my question. Can you further clarify the follwoing comments in this page

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf


This rebirth-consciousness is regarded as pure as it is either devoid of immoral roots of lust, hatred, and delusion accompanied by moral roots.


. “Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Yana » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:44 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks all. My queston is whether embryo can think.

For further information please refer to page 329 of the link below.
I hope this clarify my question. Can you further clarify the follwoing comments in this page

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf


This rebirth-consciousness is regarded as pure as it is either devoid of immoral roots of lust, hatred, and delusion accompanied by moral roots.

“Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness


Hi Sarath W,

hmm...just read page 329..so my question is If the Rebirth Consciousness is Pure than why would it cling to rebirth right?

I mean if it were free from greed,aversion and delusion.."?"
I mean if rebirth consciousness is free from greed.hatred,and delusion than is it Nibbanna..?
Do we momentarily enter this state before rebirth takes place???hmm..

Also I think the reason why we still experience rebirth despite of the rebirth consciousness being pure might be because of The Mind.Consciousness is just one part of the Mind there's still Kamma or Volition which is i think under Fabrications and it's not Consciousness soo..maybe that's why we still get reborn despite having a "pure rebirth consciousness".

sorry Am i making any sense.. :tongue:

And yes i absolutely think Embryo's can think most people just can't remember it.I bet you we'd be thinking of "becoming" I want to be this and that or maybe remember some images from a previous life.A lot of "willing" going on at the pre-embryo stage.And the sensation of sleeping and waking up from sleep sleeping and waking up from sleep.Awareness.Ofcourse i have no proof.ahaha. :tongue: :stirthepot:

:anjali:
Life is preparing for Death

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby DAWN » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:14 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks all. My queston is whether embryo can think.

For further information please refer to page 329 of the link below.
I hope this clarify my question. Can you further clarify the follwoing comments in this page

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf


This rebirth-consciousness is regarded as pure as it is either devoid of immoral roots of lust, hatred, and delusion accompanied by moral roots.


. “Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness



In my opinion, all living form have clingning to life. :roll:
All mouvement, all activity is rooted on clingning to something (life is the first thing, i think :spy: )
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:35 pm

Hi Yana
You definitely make sense to me. The very reason I ask this question was to clarify this matter. Are we all missing something very important? Ven. Narada is a pioneer in Buddhist teaching and it is hard to imagine that he will make such a grave mistake.
Should we direct this question to someone is more familiar with Sutra? Any suggestion?

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Annapurna » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:06 pm

Does an embryo have a brain?

If not, what it is supposed to be thinking with...?

Think about this, then you have your answer right there.

Also, the Buddha said we should not think about kamma and rebirth so much that we begin to ponder why we are reborn here or there and so forth.


Hope that helps...
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:23 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks all. My queston is whether embryo can think.

For further information please refer to page 329 of the link below.
I hope this clarify my question. Can you further clarify the follwoing comments in this page

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf


This rebirth-consciousness is regarded as pure as it is either devoid of immoral roots of lust, hatred, and delusion accompanied by moral roots.


. “Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness



That's odd. I checked out the Commentary to this and it says -

Navame pabhassaranti paṇḍaraṃ parisuddhaṃ. Cittanti bhavaṅgacittaṃ.


It refers to the bhavaṅgacitta, not the paṭisandhicitta.

Anywhere, you might like to re-direct your line of questioning to the Abhidhamma section, if you wish to explore Ven Narada's ideas.

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equilibrium
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby equilibrium » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:33 am

Under DN 15: (Name and form)
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."

Under DN 15: (Consciousness)
"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned?

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.

"This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.

From the OP
Radiant is this consciousness
.....the key word here is "Radiant".....the source itself! (The cause).....more important than what the embryo is thinking!

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:28 pm

SarathW wrote:The human in embryo stage (say first week) hasn’t developed six senses. (.


Here, some science:

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... GE&cad=rja

The human embryo

Week 1–3

5–7 days after fertilization, the blastocyst attaches to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium it performs implantation. Implantation connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord. The brain, spinal cord, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form.[2]

Week 4–5

Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[3] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

Week 6–8

Myogenesis and neurogenesis have progressed to where the embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Organogenesis and growth continue. Hair has started to form along with all essential organs. Facial features are beginning to develop. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.[2]
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby DAWN » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:10 pm

Good quotation equilibrium :bow:

Annapurna wrote:Does an embryo have a brain?

If not, what it is supposed to be thinking with...?

Think about this, then you have your answer right there.

Also, the Buddha said we should not think about kamma and rebirth so much that we begin to ponder why we are reborn here or there and so forth.


Hope that helps...


All informational transmission have consciosness as condition. No need to have brain, if there is shared information, there is consciosness.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Annapurna
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:50 pm

@ Dawn, sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Perhaps we need to define what we see as Consciousness... then...?
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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DAWN
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Postby DAWN » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:25 pm

Annapurna wrote:@ Dawn, sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Perhaps we need to define what we see as Consciousness... then...?


Good idea.

For me consciosness is manifestation. When there is manifestation - there is consciosness. If we use Dhamma words we can say that when there is namarupa there is consciosness.
For exemple between 0 and 1 there is consciousness, between silence and noize there is consciosness, between a paper and a painture there is sonciosness, between void and form there is consciosness.
Duality is condition to consciosness, when there is duality - there is consciousness.

So, to be able produce a mouvement, spermatozoid need information to direct this mouvement, when there is information and some receptor of this information there is consciosness.
But consciosness is conditioned by reception capacity. (sense-base)
For exemple spermatozoid can recive the information that a ovule can not, and ovule can recive information that spermatozoid can not, they have a different consciosness.

When there is information (namarupa) - there is consciosness.

So i use consciosness in this meaning.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english


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