...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
The obvious question about Kamma
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma
Greetings Alan,
.... without a single reference to kamma.
Metta,
Retro.
.... without a single reference to kamma.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
im not sure if everything is karma or not, but weve all had past lives and have done evil things in these past lives. no one is innocent, in the context of buddhist cosmology.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
But how to explain that to non-Buddhists friends, when they ask you "why" this happened?
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
I don't know either.
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma
Well, I'd tell him or her that people die everyday.alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "
--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
It seems to me that the problem is that other religions claim to make life comprehensible, that there is some purpose to it (usually something to do with God). Hence such questions. The Buddha wasn't interested in explaining a purpose, or the specific details of life, only the general problem and what to do about it.
Mike
Mike
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
Hi Alan
Another interesting question to ponder is, 'how can an all-loving and all-powerful god let this happen"?
I understand that the doctrine of kamma can seem to provide cold comfort at times like this, especially as we grasp for some form of explanation or certainty. Having said that, not everything that happens is the result of kamma. In samsara, good stuff happens as does the awful nasty and evil s--t.
Rather than focus on attempting to answer a question that cannot be answered, it may be better to acknowledge that in this moment suffering exists, that this life is fickle and our only real refuge lies is in walking the path. And in walking the path, we are that little bit more able to act for the benefit of ourselves and others. I hope the time is right for political reform on gun control in the US. It just requires the kamma (intention) of enough people to make it happen.
kind regards,
Ben
Another interesting question to ponder is, 'how can an all-loving and all-powerful god let this happen"?
I understand that the doctrine of kamma can seem to provide cold comfort at times like this, especially as we grasp for some form of explanation or certainty. Having said that, not everything that happens is the result of kamma. In samsara, good stuff happens as does the awful nasty and evil s--t.
Rather than focus on attempting to answer a question that cannot be answered, it may be better to acknowledge that in this moment suffering exists, that this life is fickle and our only real refuge lies is in walking the path. And in walking the path, we are that little bit more able to act for the benefit of ourselves and others. I hope the time is right for political reform on gun control in the US. It just requires the kamma (intention) of enough people to make it happen.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
Kamma is mouvement.befriend wrote:im not sure if everything is karma or not.
Kamma fruit = Mouvement fruit.
Is kamma who rebirth not a identity.
Yes all is kamma, all is mouvement.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma
Mention chaos theory.alan wrote:But how to explain that to non-Buddhists friends, when they ask you "why" this happened?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
mikenz66 wrote:It seems to me that the problem is that other religions claim to make life comprehensible, that there is some purpose to it (usually something to do with God). Hence such questions. The Buddha wasn't interested in explaining a purpose, or the specific details of life, only the general problem and what to do about it.
Mike
Many other good replies too.
To me, kamma is causal connection in the ever-changing flux of happenings. Of course tragic events are connected to many many other events. They are not isolated. What we all do have far-reaching impact.
_/|\_
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Re: The obvious question about Kamma
It depends on how the life was lost... I think there are many different possible ways to answer this, or maybe even a few better ways to re-frame the question.alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
If the person was murdered by someone, for example, I would also try to think about why that someone killed... just to widen the perspective a bit.
If the person died of cancer, I would think about why there's cancer, and why would that cause the death. Or even think about why we're fixated on the cancer.
I think that to fixate on just one point (as if there's such a thing, in anicca), like a specific person, or a specific thing, would be to miss a lot of things.
Of course... I wouldn't say that in this specific way to someone who wasn't even familiar with it... we just need to learn how to discuss it without relying on the Dhamma.
I practice quite a bit with people who practice Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings... we have a "dharma sharing," and one of the guidelines for it is that we shouldn't speak theoretically about something... we're just supposed to share from our experiences, and also we're just supposed to listen to other person's share without comments. I think that this helps quite a lot with learning how to apply the dharma in a real way.
If the person brought up the kamma, you can always just listen to what he/she thinks about it, be a support, and then if we can, help him/her out with adjusting his/her own views of it towards something which is more beneficial.
We don't need to remain attached with our own ideas, which I think could be a cause for that kind of choking.
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
It depends on the emotional state of the person asking and his/her background.alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?
One would most likely not do well by arguing with khamma. It would most likely be misleading them into seeing khamma as a moralistic judgment system (which it isn't.).
Really depends on the person though.
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
If you mention "kamma", then in this context the most obvious thing to say is: It was an act of cruelty (vihimsa) acting on the intention to harm others. To focus on the perpetrator of the act is more fruitful, and we can trace the impulse that led to his violent act to some thoughts and views which he held about the world and himself in it. No doubt, the kamma which he did is very heavy, and he has to be held responsible for it. Not that an All-Powerful God will judge him for it, it is more like this (a picture I saw, reproducing it below):
"There are cases where some feelings arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from uneven[2] care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of kamma. You yourself should know how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. So any brahmans & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those brahmans & contemplatives are wrong."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ven. Thanissaro tries to interpret it in a wider sense which is interesting, and it related to his interpretations of the principle of kamma and vipaka using chaos theory.
Regarding those who were killed by this person's violent action, there might not be a simple answer as to "why" it happened to them. Consider this Sutta in which the Buddha describes why painful feelings (such as being shot at) arise for living beings:I saw that.
- Karma
"There are cases where some feelings arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from uneven[2] care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of kamma. You yourself should know how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise from the result of kamma. So any brahmans & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those brahmans & contemplatives are wrong."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ven. Thanissaro tries to interpret it in a wider sense which is interesting, and it related to his interpretations of the principle of kamma and vipaka using chaos theory.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: The obvious question about Kamma
No life is innocent, or guilty.alan wrote:...Is how to explain the loss of innocent life.
Wondering how you would answer that question if presented by a friend who was not Buddhist.
Have to admit, I can't. Any ideas on this?