Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:42 am

And no, it is not intuitive awareness. If that were true, we'd all be awakened. The Buddha said his Dhamma is deep, hard to fathom, to be understood by the wise. It goes against the grain. That's why we need to read the original teachings, and try our best to understand.
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:49 am

Alan,

Intuitive Awareness is the title of a book by Ven Sumedho.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:51 am

alan wrote:And no, it is not intuitive awareness. If that were true, we'd all be awakened. The Buddha said his Dhamma is deep, hard to fathom, to be understood by the wise. It goes against the grain. That's why we need to read the original teachings, and try our best to understand.
And best to read it in the Pali.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:52 am

No disrespect to him, but do you think that is an appropriate understanding?
I've found nothing in the Suttas to back up this concept.
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:54 am

What is the Pali word for intuitive awareness?
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:54 am

alan wrote:No disrespect to him, but do you think that is an appropriate understanding?
I've found nothing in the Suttas to back up this concept.
Back up what concept?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:One way to approach the issue:

    "We don't use the Pali Canon as a basis for orthodoxy, we use the Pali Canon to investigate our experience." -- Ajahn Sumedho


Do you have a source for the Ajahn Sumedho quote, please Tilt ?

Damdifino. I saw it years ago in a news letter.


It could be a paraphrase of this quote from Ajahn Sumedho:

The Suttas need to be studied, reflected on, and practiced in order to realize their true
meaning. They are not meant to be sacred scriptures which tell us what to believe. One
should read them, listen to them, think about them, contemplate them, and investigate the
present reality, the present experience with them. Then, and only then, can one insightfully
know the Truth beyond words.


Ajahn Sumedho (From his foreword to the Mauríce Walsh translation of Dígha Nikaya)
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:48 am

Agreed.
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:54 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
It could be a paraphrase of this quote from Ajahn Sumedho
I found it in an online newsletter back in the E-Sandbox days during their "early Buddhism" skirmishes." I used it as part of my signature for awhile, but, alas, I cannot find the original source.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:58 am

Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:59 am

alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!
Everything?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:01 am

alan wrote:What is the Pali word for intuitive awareness?
I don't know if there is but I know this is Reverend Sumedho's translation of sati sampajañña.
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:02 am

alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!

In which sutta did the Buddha teach that?
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:04 am

danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!

In which sutta did the Buddha teach that?
The one that used the expression intuitive awareness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:11 am

From the link Tilt provided:
Reverend Sumedho wrote:Sometimes Theravàda comes across as annihilationism. You get into this ‘no soul, no God, no self’ fixation, this attachment to a view. Or is the Buddha’s teaching there to be investigated and explored? We are not trying to confirm somebody’s view about the Pàli Canon, but using the Pàli Canon to explore our own experience. It’s a different way of looking at it. If you investigate this a lot, you begin to really see the difference between pure consciousness and when self arises. It’s not hazy or fuzzy — “Is there self now?” — that kind of thing; it’s a clear knowing.

Intutive Awareness, pp. 136-138
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:13 am

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:
alan wrote:Original source for everything is the Suttas. Without the words of the Buddha, we would be nowhere.
This is a basic fact!

In which sutta did the Buddha teach that?
The one that used the expression intuitive awareness.

Thanks. That helps me comprehend things a little more clearly. ;)
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby alan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:17 am

Doesn't prove the point. I stand by the original post.
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:22 am

alan wrote:Doesn't prove the point. I stand by the original post.
What point?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Disregarding the Suttas is the height of arrogance.

Postby Bakmoon » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:18 pm

To me at least, the suttas are a kind of measuring stick. When we hear various teachings, we check them against the suttas to see if they are consistent. If they are, then that teacher is safe to learn from, but if they contradict the suttas, it should raise a red flag and tell us that we should exercise some caution with that particular teacher.

I don't think it is a healthy attitude however to insist that everything a teacher says has to be derivable directly from the suttas as of course, the suttas don't have a lot of detail. Consistency should be our standard, not derivability.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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