how do you enter jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Modus.Ponens wrote:Just answer the questions in this OP if you feel like and if not let it go.
:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote: . . .
Funny territory this is. Should one be proud of attaining jhana? Should one be proud of attaining stream entry? But has one really attained jhana or stream entry? Should we talk about this in the same way we talk about a really good golf score? I don't know.

I can understand Alan's need for wanting to talk about this, but what gets a little dicey is that a public forum such as this may not the safest place to talk about these things, for any number of reasons. The potential for self delusion in the advice given in response to a request for advice/help and the harm that could come from that is a primary reason that I would be reluctant to encourage such a public discussion. But as I have said about any number of topics, opinions will vary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by Ben »

Hi alan...,
alan... wrote:shame you all have to slam me for sharing and wanting to be shared with. :(
I can understand how you feel but there is no shaming, no slamming, and no attitude. I think members here just want the best for you.
In defence of those who have indicated to 'speak to a teacher or a close dhamma-friend', is that it is all too easy for one to self diagnose, and for others who do not share the same methodology or who are not mature in their practice to also misdiagnose your experience.
For the time being, I would suggest that you consider any experience you have on the cushion with a grain of salt, whether the experience is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. We should be very careful not to become attached to any experience or crave for this or that attainment. They are, after all, just indicators, sign posts, nothing more. At the same time, it might be worthwhile making contact with someone knowledgeable here, who has experience with samatha meditation with whom you can discuss things with. And in the long term - try and make contact with a meditation teacher in the style in which you are practicing. Hopefully, the link to Buddhanet will provide you with some contacts relatively close to you.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17169
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by DNS »

Ben wrote:Hi alan...,
alan... wrote:shame you all have to slam me for sharing and wanting to be shared with. :(
I can understand how you feel but there is no shaming, no slamming, and no attitude. I think members here just want the best for you.
In defence of those who have indicated to 'speak to a teacher or a close dhamma-friend', is that it is all too easy for one to self diagnose, and for others who do not share the same methodology or who are not mature in their practice to also misdiagnose your experience.
Yes, there is no slamming; just some friendly advice, which by no means you have to take or accept. You just asked some questions, that's all. And Tilt provided a link and there are other sites and books which discuss access to the jhanas. It is just that some here, including myself warned about some of the responses you might receive when jhana experiences are discussed, that's all. As I mentioned in my post, even if the jhana is genuine, one is likely to receive scrutiny from others. This is not a forum of arahants. If you can deal with this, then fine; but it is just a friendly warning. There have been numerous enlightenment claimants here at Dhamma Wheel and they all leave in a huff. And no, I am not stating that you are making any claims; all you did was ask some questions. I am just stating that be wary of the responses that follow, that's all, no slamming.
User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by DAWN »

Self appropriation of calm (jhana) is a condition to taboo.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by ohnofabrications »

Some one I respect has recommended I take down this post. It is a better idea to just practice concentration without worrying too much about jhana at all... Apparently ;)
Last edited by ohnofabrications on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by Cittasanto »

DAWN wrote:Self appropriation of calm (jhana) is a condition to taboo.
it is controversial to a degree; as it can lead to an offence for monks who lay claim to it; has a wide variety of interpretations and is difficult to attain.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Modus.Ponens wrote:Just answer the questions in this OP if you feel like and if not let it go.
:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi retro

Incredibly, and against all odds, you made the most impertinent comment (I'm not being sarcastic, because you are my favorite member here). I had two intentions with that post: to change the mentality of the inquisitors and to encourage people who are confortable to share their experiences, answerig the OP.

Well, having said this, I give up trying to make this forum a decent place to discuss meditation past the first step. Most of those in the moderation team are part of this (I certainly believe, well intentioned) inquisition, so it's useless to try making the forum a better place in this aspect if those in charge are against it.

As for those who do not have the luck of having a teacher or a buddhist friend, good luck to them on their own, and good luck asking questions in the other end of this spectrum: dharma overground. Tough luck... :shrug:
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hi ohnofabrications

Thank you for that. I have a question though, that I haven't read in books anywhere. How much time of daily siting practice is usualy advised in order to attain the jhanas? And what is the usual timeline of progression, with that amount of practice. I know people are different so it's difficult to answer this, but I would like to see average numbers.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote: . . . inquisitors . . .
I am going to assume you ae including me in this, and, quite frankly, this highly offensive and rather myopic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings MP,
Modus.Ponens wrote:I had two intentions with that post: to change the mentality of the inquisitors and to encourage people who are confortable to share their experiences, answerig the OP.
I know... and not being "an inquisitor", nor having much worth sharing on the topic, I'm endorsing what you've said through my actions....

i.e. "Just answer the questions in this OP if you feel like and if not let it go.".

I chose to let it go ~ you won't find me stifling sincere and productive inquiry. Nor do I buy into the secretive nature of the discussion ~ the Buddha did not teach with a closed fist, so why would we regard the subject as something that others should not openly discuss if they wish to (so long as no monastics break Vinaya in the process)?
alan... wrote:how do you enter jhana?

what is your step by step process?

what does it feel like?

what do you do during? afterwards?

how many jhanas can you enter?

have you mastered any of them?

used them for specific purposes?

what are your goals?
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by ohnofabrications »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hi ohnofabrications

Thank you for that. I have a question though, that I haven't read in books anywhere. How much time of daily siting practice is usualy advised in order to attain the jhanas? And what is the usual timeline of progression, with that amount of practice. I know people are different so it's difficult to answer this, but I would like to see average numbers.
I haven't taken any surveys and I really think it is more a matter of how sincerely you go at it than how much time you spend. I would say a good amount of time to formally practice is like 4-5 hours a day, though I really do think you could attain just about anything with less. The only thing really effected by 'momentum' is your concentration, so if you are in full retreat practicing 10+ hours you would be really capable of attaining really strong stillness and refinement of fabrication. Learning about the process of fabricating, generating dispassion and relinquishment though is less dependent on momentum. I think you can attain "soft" versions (versions that are phasing in and out alot) of the 8 jhanas without momentum, but if you want harder jhanas you will need the momentum.

If you only have 1-2 hours to practice formally each day, your best bet might just be to work on examining and dropping the fabrications that cause stress without first trying to manipulating them to form a stable base. The way I'd most recommend practicing that would be this:

Pay attention to the 'inner' body, i.e. all the sensations that seem to be occurring 'under' the skin. Now look for sensations that are emotional - i.e. sensations tied to thought, the bodily component of desire. Pay attention to these and try to recognize the subtle process of labeling which is occurring whenever they are present. As long as there are these desire sensations in the body there is some reactivity going on towards them - either a pushing them away or an indulging in them. This is what you are trying to eliminate, generate a total non-reactivity towards those emotional sensations and they will dissolve, though of course you can't attend to them with the expectation that they will dissolve. So if you can switch your attitude towards the desire sensations to utter and total acceptance, it might even help sometimes if you find that you are fighting them to try to 'enjoy' them, then suddenly your identity can find no more basis in them so they are no longer fabricated. Ajahn Jayasaro has a great line in his 'seen in their true light' photo/poetry book

not indulging in sorrow
not fighting with sorrow
sorrow unfed
fades away

This works at the level of sensations with all desires/aversions/delusions. If you are fighting with or indulging in greed/aversion/delusion then you are making them part of your "narrative" your "i-making" and so they stick around, when they aren't part of your i-making, i.e. you aren't labeling or reacting to them, then they dissolve. This is the kind of practice which you eventually have to do 24/7, this sort of non-reactive, self-less mode of experience becomes more and more refined, as well as more and more effortless, until you are doing it perfectly all the time.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings MP,
Modus.Ponens wrote: Nor do I buy into the secretive nature of the discussion ~ the Buddha did not teach with a closed fist, so why would we regard the subject as something that others should not openly discuss if they wish to (so long as no monastics break Vinaya in the process)?
The issue is not a matter of being secretive; it is simply a matter of caveat lector, as has been carefully spelled out above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by manas »

Hi alan...,

you are not alone in wanting to share your samadhi experience. And, you are not alone if you now feel some regret that you did (not because you did anything wrong, no; but rather, because you opened up a bit and shared something that feels quite personal in a public forum, and that those replying thus far have not similarly shared their experiences so openly (not that there is anything wrong with that, either). I'm also not game to; I've learned to keep such things to myself. But for the record, I don't slam you for sharing it, and neither has anyone else on this topic thus far. Saying 'these things are best discussed between a teacher and pupil' isn't the same as slamming.

As to your original question, I can only offer that it's a bit like detective work as far as I'm concerned, and that I'm not even sure if I've 'entered into' or 'attained' or 'issued forth' the first jhana yet, or not...I can't say with certainty. Anyway, for me there is a passage in the sammanaphala sutta that, if studied thoroughly and also compared with other suttas such as the satipatthana suttas, the kayagatasati sutta, and the anapanasati sutta, might be of assistance. Bear in mind that this section in the sutta occurs after a whole lot of groundwork has already been discussed: one has cultivated and established virtue, sense restraint, mindfulness and alertness (in all one's activites), and contentedness (it's discussing a forest monk who is content with little...no wonder jhana is quite challenging for us layfolk). Then:
Abandoning the Hindrances

"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

"Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man falls sick — in pain and seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man, carrying money and goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money and goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.

(The Four Jhanas)

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

...
Now there is a guide to entering jhana from the Buddha himself. But, one also needs an object and for many of us it's the breath, and for that one also needs a few other suttas to assist one. So, for me, one needs to compare the suttas against each other, and against one's own personal experiences, and gradually come to a better and better understanding, by degrees. That's how I find it, anyway. But others might find it otherwise.

With metta, and don't worry! :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
barcsimalsi
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:33 am

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Post by barcsimalsi »

David N. Snyder wrote: There have been numerous enlightenment claimants here at Dhamma Wheel and they all leave in a huff.
But when they realize they are f, they can let go of their old identity and return with a new user name/account. This is happening in what ever forum especially in Buddhist's where we are trained for detachment and rebirth so don't worry about that.
I respect the administrative advice and i do not intend to encourage something crazy. I think Forum is a place for all out inquisition accompanied by advices, arguments and corrections.

To the question of the OP, i don't because i'm still working towards it.
Post Reply