Newtown Shootings

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:02 am

I think it would kind of be nice if we could separate the tragedy of what happened from the Gun Control debate though. My heart goes out to those who lost their loved ones and those who were affected.

Justsit
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Justsit » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:41 pm

Agreed, Mr. Man.

In the interest of accuracy, though, the rifle used is not a "hunting rifle" - unless one is hunting humans. (Available for about $800 at your local Walmart. Gotta love America.)

corrine
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:33 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby corrine » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:39 pm

While I live in the southwestern United States and I am an advocate of gun control, at this time my only feeling is one of grief for these innocent lives lost and for their poor families who may never recover. How do you move forward when something so unthinkable has happened to your sweet little angel? Are there any answers to be had? Anger is a normal but not helpful response. I really believe that we have to find a way to stop these senseless slaughters. My country, which I dearly love, seems to have become a shooting gallery. I do not know what has changed to cause this. It was not this way when I was young. Children were, overall, free to live their precious little lives safely. I grew up in Los Angeles and ran around the entire neighborhood without my parents having to worry. In the fifties. The neighbors watched out for all of the kids.

What has happened to us as a nation? I simply cannot come to grips with this. Are there answers? To be angry in the aftermath may be natural, but it does not seem to address the actual horrible problem. What can we do, now, to stop this?

corrine

User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: America

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:44 pm

corrine wrote:What has happened to us as a nation? I simply cannot come to grips with this. Are there answers? To be angry in the aftermath may be natural, but it does not seem to address the actual horrible problem. What can we do, now, to stop this?

We can have a meaningful conversation about the gun laws that allowed this to happen!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4532
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby daverupa » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:52 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
corrine wrote:What has happened to us as a nation? I simply cannot come to grips with this. Are there answers? To be angry in the aftermath may be natural, but it does not seem to address the actual horrible problem. What can we do, now, to stop this?

We can have a meaningful conversation about the gun laws that allowed this to happen!


Guns are not magical talismans that break the minds of those who come into contact with them. Violence being done, the particular tool chosen is not a sole cause (it may not even be a cause). Trying to remove means without addressing motives is going about things altogether backwards.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
anjali
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:05 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby anjali » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:34 pm

Ben wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:but unfortunately it probably wouldn't have mattered in this case since he acquired the guns illegally.


True.
But why is there so many guns in the US?
And why are they so easily obtainable (legally or illegally?)
kind regards,

Ben


Originally, there was the notion of the citizen militia. No standing army. Of course that changed very quickly, but the notion of an armed citizenry didn't. That doesn't totally explain the current situation in the US, but it does give context.

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: North Jersey

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby SDC » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:20 pm

corrine wrote:What has happened to us as a nation? I simply cannot come to grips with this. Are there answers? To be angry in the aftermath may be natural, but it does not seem to address the actual horrible problem. What can we do, now, to stop this?

corrine


Slow down...which we won't.

As a nation, the US wants to keep moving, producing, creating, developing, progressing...more, more, more, and we want it with peace and happiness maintained the entire time. Have cake, eat too. Every day. No matter what. All the while, we do our best to combat all the negative side affects that arise. Problem is, the faster we move the more elaborate the negative side affects become, and the more difficult they are to combat.

If we continue at this pace, there is absolutely NOTHING that can be done to stop something like this from happening again. "As a nation" we have lost control.

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby appicchato » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:50 pm

Just read this elsewhere...true that...

'...not even the taliban have done something so vile. He shot each child several times.'

User avatar
Monkey Mind
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:56 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Monkey Mind » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:58 pm

{removed editorial comments, this does not seem like an appropriate thread for that...}

May the surviving families of the dead (and of the perpetrator) experience wellness during this difficult time.
Last edited by Monkey Mind on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

Yana
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:45 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Yana » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:26 am

I don't understand America's gun culture.
Does this look like a weapon "civilians" purchase for "self defense"?
Assault Weapons...come on...are you waiting for some kind of zombie invasion...seriously how man rounds can you pump into an intruder..

One man brings a shoe bomb at the airport now everyone has to take their shoes off through security.
A lot of people die of gun related deaths and nothings been done about it.Mental health issues or not.I'm pretty sure If you took the gun away it would have limited his way of killing.
Attachments
h.jpg
h.jpg (8.63 KiB) Viewed 490 times
Life is preparing for Death

User avatar
poto
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby poto » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:49 am

Yana wrote:Does this look like a weapon "civilians" purchase for "self defense"?


This is a common misunderstanding. Our 2nd amendment rights were written specifically so that the population be well armed and able to fight against an army.

It was not written to protect the rights of hunters, sportsmen or for mere self-defense. The founding fathers feared the British would return and attempt to retake the fledgling nation, and as such they wanted to ensure the people had the power to resist them. This is why the 2nd amendment allows us to keep assault weapons that are on par with military small arms.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 14813
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:51 am

Greetings,

poto wrote:It was not written to protect the rights of hunters, sportsmen or for mere self-defense. The founding fathers feared the British would return and attempt to retake the fledgling nation, and as such they wanted to ensure the people had the power to resist them. This is why the 2nd amendment allows us to keep assault weapons that are on par with military small arms.

But are Americans still scared of the British?

What would be more manly than renouncing this fear and the constitutional amendment that such fear spawned?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

Justsit
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Justsit » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:But are Americans still scared of the British?

What would be more manly than renouncing this fear and the constitutional amendment that such fear spawned?

No, now we're scared of big government, drug dealers, whackos - basically each other.

In America, manly is equated with big guns. Big anything. Bigger is better. Bigger is powerful. Big guns are equated with big, um, anatomy. :jedi:
Really. A lot of American men have issues. :rolleye:

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2192
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby manas » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:06 am

Mawkish wrote:Right now I feel nothing but pure, raging, caustic anger at the killer. Anger of such intense magnitude that it has completely overwhelmed my senses. THEY WERE CHILDREN. NOW THEY ARE CORPSES.


I'm a parent, and my initial reaction was of horror, and of shock. They were just little kids...it's unthinkable.

But then reality sank in. Such cruelty to the vulnerable has been ongoing throughout history. Little children are, tragically, abused or killed in all kinds of ways, most likely somewhere every day, all around the world, whether or not we hear about it in the 'news'.

imho it's fine to feel some sadness for a while, but not to dwell on it too much, because there is important work to be done: the work of purifying the mind of the defilements. Anger is a defilement of the mind, so we've got to let go of anger towards the perpetrator, not to 'let him off the hook' in any way, but rather for our own sakes. Didn't he (also) kill his mother and then himself? If so that would mean his current location is in hell (if my memory serves me correctly, intentionally killing one's mother or father leads to a hellish rebirth in the very next life). Truly, we can have compassion for everyone involved in this tragic event.

:candle:
Last edited by manas on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Kusala » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:14 am

Ben wrote:I agree Jonno.
However, I think its well over time that Americans demanded real action.
kind regards,

Ben


Hi Ben, I hate to sound like a pessimist, but it's virtually impossible. Gun control is about as effective as the "war on drugs"...
Image

Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.

User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
Posts: 16349
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Land of the sleeping gods
Contact:

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Ben » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:29 am

Kusala wrote:
Ben wrote:I agree Jonno.
However, I think its well over time that Americans demanded real action.
kind regards,

Ben


Hi Ben, I hate to sound like a pessimist, but it's virtually impossible. Gun control is about as effective as the "war on drugs"...


Don't give up hope, Kusala.
We managed to do it in Australia following Port Arthur in 1996.
Despite the extraordinary catastrophe that happened in Conneticut over the weekend, it may provide a window of opportunity for real change.
Hopefully, Obama has the testicular fortitude to take on the vested interests and make gun control a top priority in his second term.
with metta,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2192
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby manas » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:30 am

Kusala wrote:
Ben wrote:I agree Jonno.
However, I think its well over time that Americans demanded real action.
kind regards,

Ben


Hi Ben, I hate to sound like a pessimist, but it's virtually impossible. Gun control is about as effective as the "war on drugs"...


If even just a majority of American gun owners, without being coerced, hand in their firearms in response to some new kind of 'buyback' legislation, I will dive into the Yarra River in Melbourne. That's how sceptical I am that Americans will ever willingly hand back their guns en masse!

(Edit: you would have to be familiar with the water quality of this river by the time it reaches the city, to really appreciate what I just said above.)

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8291
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:22 am

poto wrote:This is a common misunderstanding. Our 2nd amendment rights were written specifically so that the population be well armed and able to fight against an army.

It was not written to protect the rights of hunters, sportsmen or for mere self-defense. The founding fathers feared the British would return and attempt to retake the fledgling nation, and as such they wanted to ensure the people had the power to resist them. This is why the 2nd amendment allows us to keep assault weapons that are on par with military small arms.


I support the right to bear arms in limited cases, but I have to agree with our Aussie friends on this one. It is an anachronism. If the U.S. were attacked in today's modern warfare, pistols and shotguns are going to be of little use; even assault weapons. The modern warfare is in the skies with missiles and nuclear warheads. It is a much different world from 1776.

Papashaw
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:09 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Papashaw » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:38 am

Good and evil dont look balanced, it doesn't look balanced to me because the Buddha has said human rebirth is rare.
But the bigger doubt causer is events like these! Those kids won't be able to hug their parents now, that pain from longing by those parents!

Pray for everyone. Goodnight.

User avatar
Jesse Smith
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:34 pm

Re: Newtown Shootings

Postby Jesse Smith » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:49 am

daverupa wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:
corrine wrote:What has happened to us as a nation? I simply cannot come to grips with this. Are there answers? To be angry in the aftermath may be natural, but it does not seem to address the actual horrible problem. What can we do, now, to stop this?

We can have a meaningful conversation about the gun laws that allowed this to happen!


Guns are not magical talismans that break the minds of those who come into contact with them. Violence being done, the particular tool chosen is not a sole cause (it may not even be a cause). Trying to remove means without addressing motives is going about things altogether backwards.


I agree that guns are not a unique talisman for unstable minds. But they do offer an outlet that holds the promise of ending more lives, more immediately, and more effectively than any other readily available means. If you had a room full of mentally unstable people in a room with the floor covered with guns, you'd want to remove the guns before moving on to address each individuals mental illness.
Individuals taking out their anger at innocent people is nothing new. People losing touch with reality to this degree and suffering similar levels of mental illness as the Tucson shooter, and recent mass killers is nothing new. I don't think they are reaching new heights of mental instability. But how they are choosing to act out, how their instability is being manifested as gun violence is undeniably significant. Seemed for a bit, we had serial killers who would kill one at a time, string it out, and include the element of eluding detection in their actions. We've always had suicidal people. But something significant is occurring in these times. We're seeing a combination of these two elements coming together in the actions of mentally unstable people. Though mentally unstable, they do recognize the logical effectiveness of the gun, and large amounts of ammunition in playing out their final act, and their choosing to kill strangers assembled in large groups. This as a current "trend".
We have such a limited and insufficient means to identify mental illness early on or cure the mentally unstable in later stages. We have means, but they are very limited. But we certainly have the knowledge and means of limiting access to guns and put limits on the physical capabilities of those guns that are accessable. It makes sense to take the action you can first, prevent what you can now. It doesn't mean we abandon efforts to help the ill. We can do both. But addressing the guns now will stop the bright red bleeding.


Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests