vipassana craziness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Tilt another difference with the way that Goenka teaches is to implement it you need to comfit to the whole Goenka package.
  • comfit - candy containing a fruit or nut
That is interesting. I never heard that before.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
And what does that mean?
I'm off out now so I will come back to you but what does it mean to you?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
And what does that mean?
I'm off out now so I will come back to you but what does it mean to you?
I'll wait till you get back.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

comfit = commit
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Tilt another difference with the way that Goenka teaches is to implement it you need to comfit to the whole Goenka package.
While you are on retreat, that certainly makes sense, but I have known committed students of Goenka who have worked with other teachers and methods. What is your complaint here? You seem to want to find something wrong with the Goenka practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
And what does that mean?
I think it is fairly self-explanatory.
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Tilt another difference with the way that Goenka teaches is to implement it you need to comfit to the whole Goenka package.
While you are on retreat, that certainly makes sense, but I have known committed students of Goenka who have worked with other teachers and methods. What is your complaint here?
It goes beyond the retreat.
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to want to find something wrong with the Goenka practice.
No I don't want to find something wrong with the Goenka practice. There are aspects that are worthy of discussion though.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by daverupa »

retrofuturist wrote:I would suggest that you don't have to do the above in any methodological manner. In my case, I know what the frames of reference are, care of the Satipatthana Sutta, and I apply and use them as I see fit at any given moment.
That which you see fit is the method, the technique.

I think you're objecting to claims of "the right technique" or "the only technique" or "one technique fits all", as opposed to techniques themselves. Do I misunderstand?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
And what does that mean?
I think it is fairly self-explanatory.
Explain it, please.
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Tilt another difference with the way that Goenka teaches is to implement it you need to comfit to the whole Goenka package.
While you are on retreat, that certainly makes sense, but I have known committed students of Goenka who have worked with other teachers and methods. What is your complaint here?
It goes beyond the retreat.
And I have yet to see anyone who has done some other practice on their own time being barred from doing a Goenka retreat.
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to want to find something wrong with the Goenka practice.
No I don't want to find something wrong with the Goenka practice. There are aspects that are worthy of discussion though.
Still looks like you are fault finding.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
From the OP "proof that Anapanna was doing its work and bringing the gross level impurities to the surface".
And what does that mean?
I think it is fairly self-explanatory.
Interestingly enough, meditation is an agent of change. We don't do the practice (whatever technique we opt to use) to stay the same. We do it because we want change -- we are not satisified with how we are -- and because meditation is the catalyst, a change agent, it is what promotes changes, hopefully the changes we want. One of the interesting things to be observed here on DW is the focus on jhana. It is an obvious and dramatic experiential process indicative of change that people really, really want for any number of reasons. In a retreat, particularly one that is challenging, as one becomes quiet, stuff is naturally going to come up, which is, depending upon the type of retreat, not necessarily a bad thing at all. So, what is the problem you are having here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

Tilt, Anapanna is not bringing the gross level impurities to the surface. I think that that is a misrepresentation of what is happening.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Tilt, Anapanna is not bringing the gross level impurities to the surface. I think that that is a misrepresentation of what is happening.
Says you, but the reality is, whether you want it to or not, that sort of stuff happens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Tilt, Anapanna is not bringing the gross level impurities to the surface. I think that that is a misrepresentation of what is happening.
A couple of thing. The mindfulness of breathing that the Goenka people do is not the highly structured practice of MN 118, but mindfulness of breathing can and does allow for things to pop up. It is the nature of the beast.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by daverupa »

Maybe the problem is the metaphor: perhaps consider anapanasati to be like calming the surface of a turbulent pond, allowing one to see the bottom. Rather than saying it brings things to the surface, perhaps say that it allows things to be seen with greater clarity - impurities and purities alike. It's the same thing, but sometimes metaphors have connotations which cause confusion.
AN 1.46 wrote:"Suppose there were a pool of water — clear, limpid, and unsullied. A man with good eyesight standing there on the bank would see shells, gravel, & pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting. Why is that? Because of the unsullied nature of the water. In the same way, that a monk with an unsullied mind would know his own benefit, the benefit of others, the benefit of both; that he would realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction of knowledge & vision: Such a thing is possible. Why is that? Because of the unsullied nature of his mind."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Ben »

daverupa wrote:Maybe the problem is the metaphor
Well said, Dave.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: vipassana craziness

Post by Mr Man »

daverupa wrote:Maybe the problem is the metaphor
Yes, in my opinion there is definitely a problem with the metaphor or if it is even meant as a metaphor.
Post Reply