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zen masters... - Dhamma Wheel

zen masters...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:14 am

i don't doubt that many of these masters deeply understood buddhism and possibly were even enlightened. i really dig zen and have read a LOT of zen literature, from tang dynasty masters works to dogen all the way up to shunryu suzuki and dt suzuki. i have trained zen at a zen temple and gone to retreats and loved everything about it for the most part. so don't think i'm hating or anything, zen really is wonderful.

that being said,

what is up with zen masters in history (and today i suppose) drinking alcohol, sleeping with women, beating people up, and not losing their status of being accepted as a master with a great understanding of satori and the dharma???

correct me if i'm wrong but if a bhikkhu in the buddhas time or even today in the theravada tradition was well respected and thought of as a stream enterer or higher and then started getting wasted on booze, got married and started beating people up, wouldn't they generally be understood to have fallen away from the dhamma at best or at worst to have been total frauds in the first place? i recall one sutta (somewhere in the vinaya i believe) in which the buddha created a new rule, because a bhikkhu slept with his own wife, that bhikkhus could not do this, so i'm fairly confident that i'm right in this regard.

asking a zen person this will get a reply such as: "that's just zen. all things are one, non dual, so sleeping with women is zen, so is beating people up."

now i'm wondering what theravada people say about this?

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tiltbillings
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Re: zen masters...

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:49 am


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Dan74
Posts: 3012
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Re: zen masters...

Postby Dan74 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:50 am

_/|\_

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:06 am


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:10 am


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Dan74
Posts: 3012
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Re: zen masters...

Postby Dan74 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:06 am

_/|\_

alan...
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Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:22 am


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Dan74
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Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby Dan74 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:44 am

Well, it's not that it's harsh, alan, it's that you are not addressing what I wrote.

I queried your claim that Hakuin drank and was violent. And so far you have not provided evidence.

Again, I didn't at all say that he was squeaky clean perfect human being. Maybe you should read my post carefully?

Zen teachers like teachers of all traditions are usually imperfect. I am not sure that in Zen that we cut people more slack for that - it's just how it is and if a teacher still have some insight into the Dharma, can transmit it and genuinely cares for their students, they are Zen teachers.

And yes, since the Meiji reforms, Japanese monks are not required to stay celibate. Some do, it's optional. This does not apply to Chinese Chan or Korean Seon, equivalents, which are also part of the "Zen" school in most people's vocab and who follow Vinaya, albeit not as literally as Theravada monks. Whether in practice it translates to worse or better adherence to Vinaya, I don't know, but would be interesting to investigate.

Ikkyu is influential in Japanese poetry and folklore. He is not studied in Zen nor is he an example of how a Zen practitioner should behave.
_/|\_

alan...
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:56 am


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Dan74
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Re: zen masters...

Postby Dan74 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:22 am

_/|\_

santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby santa100 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:07 pm


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:57 pm


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:06 pm

Last edited by alan... on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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daverupa
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby daverupa » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:17 pm

Last edited by daverupa on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alan...
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby alan... » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:21 pm


darvki
Posts: 74
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Re: zen masters...

Postby darvki » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:24 pm


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Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby Dan74 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:49 pm

_/|\_

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m0rl0ck
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Re: zen masters...

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:31 pm

Last edited by m0rl0ck on Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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tiltbillings
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Re: zen masters...

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:38 pm


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Alex123
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: zen masters...

Postby Alex123 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:02 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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