OK, I know this is a Buddhist forum, so it is easy to predict the result.
Still, I think it would be interesting to see what percentage of Buddhists don't believe in rebirth.
Do you believe in rebirth?
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
I voted not important
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
What one believes is not as relevant to the Path as what view one holds.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
The beginningless round of rebirths, being born, ageing, dying, being reborn, ageing, dying, being reborn...genkaku wrote:Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
OK ... so I assume this is something you believe in.Stefan wrote:The beginningless round of rebirths, being born, ageing, dying, being reborn, ageing, dying, being reborn...genkaku wrote:Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
Outside the intellectual and emotional evidence you might suggest, is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
I don't know anyone who sets the bar that high for their beliefs.genkaku wrote:some proof that brooks no uncertainty
In my experience, the beliefs we hold can seem to have a life of their own. We just have these beliefs, like we have a nose on our face. They can change over time (and even produce boogers), but at the moment we have them, that's what we happen to believe. One difficulty is that a lot of folks seem to strongly identify with the beliefs they happen to have at any particular moment. Sometimes so much so that they're willing to kill for them (or at least become a martyr).
Belief in rebirth can be like that. Another element of belief in rebirth as Stefan has framed it is that even within that framework there are still lots of possible different aspects to believe or not believe. Like do you believe is a soul (or something like a soul?) Or do you believe rebirth is guided by some universal judging entity of some kind? Or do you believe rebirth can only occur in certain forms or certain places, or within a particular timeframe?
Lots and lots of opportunity for beliefs, even if you don't believe ...
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
I don't fully understand what you mean. Lord Buddha taught rebirth, and I trust Him on that. So yes, I believe rebirth is a fact.genkaku wrote:OK ... so I assume this is something you believe in.Stefan wrote:The beginningless round of rebirths, being born, ageing, dying, being reborn, ageing, dying, being reborn...genkaku wrote:Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
Outside the intellectual and emotional evidence you might suggest, is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
Have a nice day Genkaku!
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
I do.Jechbi wrote:I don't know anyone who sets the bar that high for their beliefs.genkaku wrote:some proof that brooks no uncertainty
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
FWIW ... If the bar is not set at the realm of certainty, what becomes of Buddhism except as another realm of uncertainty, however beautifully it may be embellished?nathan wrote:I do.Jechbi wrote:I don't know anyone who sets the bar that high for their beliefs.genkaku wrote:some proof that brooks no uncertainty
My teacher once said that belief and hope were fine starting points in practice. Nobody would ever begin practice at all without such things, he said. But, he added, "after four or five years (of practice), belief and hope are not so necessary." Why? Because experience trumps belief and hope ... experience is assured and complete, whereas belief and hope by definition are limited; they separate things; and they nourish uncertainty.
Just my two cents.
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
I believe we've already got a rebirth debate thread going on. If the choices in the poll aren't enough for you then you are free to simply not vote.
If it was fact then it would not be belief.
Pretty simple folks.
If there was no uncertainly then it wouldn't be belief.is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
If it was fact then it would not be belief.
Pretty simple folks.
Last edited by kc2dpt on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
Hello genkaku, all
Most serious buddhists I know, don't operate from either hope or belief. They operate from the point of view of investigation and experiential trust. "This much" they know and have experienced to be true in what the Blessed One taught ~ so, , based on this, as they practice and study, they trust that what they don't currently know and experience of the rest of his teachings to be true, is certainly as he teaches. No projected time limit on arriving at experiential certainty.
metta
Chris
Most serious buddhists I know, don't operate from either hope or belief. They operate from the point of view of investigation and experiential trust. "This much" they know and have experienced to be true in what the Blessed One taught ~ so, , based on this, as they practice and study, they trust that what they don't currently know and experience of the rest of his teachings to be true, is certainly as he teaches. No projected time limit on arriving at experiential certainty.
metta
Chris
Last edited by cooran on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
My teacher once said that belief and hope were fine starting points in practice. Nobody would ever begin practice at all without such things, he said. But, he added, "after four or five years (of practice), belief and hope are not so necessary." Why? Because experience trumps belief and hope ... experience is assured and complete, whereas belief and hope by definition are limited; they separate things; and they nourish uncertainty.
Thank you for sharing this, to me this is very wise
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
Oh, well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!Peter wrote:I believe we've already got a rebirth debate thread going on. If the choices in the poll aren't enough for you then you are free to simply not vote.
If there was no uncertainly then it wouldn't be belief.is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
If it was fact then it would not be belief.
Pretty simple folks.
then change mine to:
No & know.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?
I too concur with what Chris says above.
Metta,
Retro.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."