How does one become "a person of integrity"?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

How does one become "a person of integrity"?

Postby Tom » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:36 am

"Monks, could a person of no integrity know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity'?"

"No, lord."

"Good, monks. It's impossible, there's no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity.'

"Could a person of no integrity know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity'?"

"No, lord."

"Good, monks. It's impossible, there's no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity.'...


"Now, monks, could a person of integrity know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity'?"

"Yes, lord."

"Good, monks. It is possible that a person of integrity would know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity.'

"Could a person of integrity know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity'?"

"Yes, lord."

"Good, monks. It is possible that a person of integrity would know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity.'
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.110.than.html - MN 110



    How does one become "a person of integrity"?
    Last edited by Tom on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Tom
     
    Posts: 124
    Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:50 pm

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:39 am

    By becoming a sotapanna.
    When one is a sotapanna, one's sila from then on is pure.
    Thus, a "person of integrity".
    kind regards,

    Ben
    "One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

    - Hereclitus


    Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
    Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

    e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
    User avatar
    Ben
    Site Admin
     
    Posts: 16059
    Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
    Location: Land of the sleeping gods

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby Tom » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:04 am

    If this sutta is saying that one who isn't "a person of integrity" cannot know who is and who is not "a person of integrity", doesn't that mean that a person who isn't "a person of integrity" but searching for "a person of integrity", won't know for certain if people supposedly speaking Dhamma to them are people "of integrity" or not? If this is the case are there ways to make good guesses in searching for "people of integrity"?
    Tom
     
    Posts: 124
    Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:50 pm

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby polarbuddha101 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:11 am

    ccharles wrote:If this sutta is saying that one who isn't "a person of integrity" cannot know who is and who is not "a person of integrity", doesn't that mean that a person who isn't "a person of integrity" but searching for "a person of integrity", won't know for certain if people supposedly speaking Dhamma to them are people "of integrity" or not? If this is the case are there ways to make good guesses in searching for "people of integrity"?


    Yes, you can make an educated guess.

    "There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.

    When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive.

    When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.

    When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

    "To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.

    "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth."

    "The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
    "I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

    "I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
    User avatar
    polarbuddha101
     
    Posts: 814
    Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
    Location: California

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:21 am

    See also the Sappurisa Sutta and the Asappurisa Sutta.
    AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
    User avatar
    Bhikkhu Pesala
     
    Posts: 2006
    Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:10 pm

    SN 3.11:

    "...It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard."

    (The pattern repeats for:

    It is by dealing with someone --> honesty is to be known
    ...In adversities --> fortitude...
    ...In discussion --> wisdom...)
      "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

      "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
    - Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
    User avatar
    daverupa
     
    Posts: 4118
    Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby Tom » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:49 pm

    daverupa wrote:SN 3.11:

    "...It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard."

    (The pattern repeats for:

    It is by dealing with someone --> honesty is to be known
    ...In adversities --> fortitude...
    ...In discussion --> wisdom...)


    If this is the case, then how does one become wise and attentive?
    Tom
     
    Posts: 124
    Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:50 pm

    Re: How does one become "a person of integrity"?

    Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:37 pm

    ccharles wrote:how does one become wise and attentive?


    AN 8.2 wrote:"Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight?...


    & attentiveness is yoniso manasikara. (It's possible the word 'attentive' here is actually samāhito - I don't know Pali at all well - but this would invoke samadhi, which is strongly related anyway, I think.)
      "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

      "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
    - Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
    User avatar
    daverupa
     
    Posts: 4118
    Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm


    Return to General Theravāda discussion

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 6 guests