What is embryo thinking?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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equilibrium
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by equilibrium »

Under DN 15: (Name and form)
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
Under DN 15: (Consciousness)
"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned?

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.

"This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.
From the OP
Radiant is this consciousness
.....the key word here is "Radiant".....the source itself! (The cause).....more important than what the embryo is thinking!
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Annapurna
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by Annapurna »

SarathW wrote:The human in embryo stage (say first week) hasn’t developed six senses. (.
Here, some science:

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... GE&cad=rja" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The human embryo

Week 1–3

5–7 days after fertilization, the blastocyst attaches to the wall of the uterus (endometrium). When it comes into contact with the endometrium it performs implantation. Implantation connections between the mother and the embryo will begin to form, including the umbilical cord. The embryo's growth centers around an axis, which will become the spine and spinal cord. The brain, spinal cord, heart, and gastrointestinal tract begin to form.[2]

Week 4–5

Chemicals produced by the embryo stop the woman's menstrual cycle. Neurogenesis is underway, showing brain activity at about the 6th week.[3] The heart will begin to beat around the same time. Limb buds appear where arms and legs will grow later. Organogenesis begins. The head represents about one half of the embryo's axial length, and more than half of the embryo's mass. The brain develops into five areas. Tissue formation occurs that develops into the vertebra and some other bones. The heart starts to beat and blood starts to flow.[2]

Week 6–8

Myogenesis and neurogenesis have progressed to where the embryo is capable of motion, and the eyes begin to form. Organogenesis and growth continue. Hair has started to form along with all essential organs. Facial features are beginning to develop. At the end of the 8th week, the embryonic stage is over, and the fetal stage begins.[2]
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DAWN
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by DAWN »

Good quotation equilibrium :bow:
Annapurna wrote:Does an embryo have a brain?

If not, what it is supposed to be thinking with...?

Think about this, then you have your answer right there.

Also, the Buddha said we should not think about kamma and rebirth so much that we begin to ponder why we are reborn here or there and so forth.


Hope that helps...
All informational transmission have consciosness as condition. No need to have brain, if there is shared information, there is consciosness.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Annapurna
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by Annapurna »

@ Dawn, sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Perhaps we need to define what we see as Consciousness... then...?
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DAWN
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by DAWN »

Annapurna wrote:@ Dawn, sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Perhaps we need to define what we see as Consciousness... then...?
Good idea.

For me consciosness is manifestation. When there is manifestation - there is consciosness. If we use Dhamma words we can say that when there is namarupa there is consciosness.
For exemple between 0 and 1 there is consciousness, between silence and noize there is consciosness, between a paper and a painture there is sonciosness, between void and form there is consciosness.
Duality is condition to consciosness, when there is duality - there is consciousness.

So, to be able produce a mouvement, spermatozoid need information to direct this mouvement, when there is information and some receptor of this information there is consciosness.
But consciosness is conditioned by reception capacity. (sense-base)
For exemple spermatozoid can recive the information that a ovule can not, and ovule can recive information that spermatozoid can not, they have a different consciosness.

When there is information (namarupa) - there is consciosness.

So i use consciosness in this meaning.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
Bakmoon
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by Bakmoon »

Well, as consciousness is dependently arisen on the senses, and embryos don't even have a nervous system until the fourth week (I think that's when, if anyone knows differently please correct me), so I would suppose that prior to developing a nervous system able to engage in some sort of sense activity, the embryo doesn't have any consciousness. That's just my opinion, however.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
daverupa
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by daverupa »

Bakmoon wrote:Well, as consciousness is dependently arisen on the senses, and embryos don't even have a nervous system until the fourth week (I think that's when, if anyone knows differently please correct me), so I would suppose that prior to developing a nervous system able to engage in some sort of sense activity, the embryo doesn't have any consciousness. That's just my opinion, however.
Vinnana has namarupa and sankhara as condition, and alongside the six sense bases and an appropriate percept in range, forms the tripartite condition for contact.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Sylvester
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by Sylvester »

The trick is to decide if the locative case employed in this-that conditionality should be interpreted to entail a temporal reading or a causative reading (that is temporally disjunct). The Chinese translators of the Agamas elected the causative...
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DAWN
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by DAWN »

There is consciosness between 0 and 1, between silence and noize, between paper and picture, between void and form, between all duality.
All fenomena "have" consciosness.

Verse 1:
Manopubbangama dhamma
manosettha manomaya
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
Bakmoon
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by Bakmoon »

daverupa wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:Well, as consciousness is dependently arisen on the senses, and embryos don't even have a nervous system until the fourth week (I think that's when, if anyone knows differently please correct me), so I would suppose that prior to developing a nervous system able to engage in some sort of sense activity, the embryo doesn't have any consciousness. That's just my opinion, however.
Vinnana has namarupa and sankhara as condition, and alongside the six sense bases and an appropriate percept in range, forms the tripartite condition for contact.
I know that, but it's a lot easier to ask when an embryo has the six sense bases than it is to try to see when an embryo has namarupa and sankhara.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
SarathW
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by SarathW »

Sylvester wrote:
SarathW wrote:Thanks all. My queston is whether embryo can think.

For further information please refer to page 329 of the link below.
I hope this clarify my question. Can you further clarify the follwoing comments in this page

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


This rebirth-consciousness is regarded as pure as it is either devoid of immoral roots of lust, hatred, and delusion accompanied by moral roots.


. “Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness
Hi Sylvester
Thanks for your search. Se the page 406 of attached link for the following statement:
------
This relinking-consciousness is regarded as “radiant”
(pabhassara) as it is either devoid of immoral
roots of lust, hatred and delusion (as in the case of
‘rootless resultants—ahetukavipàka), or accompanied
by moral roots (as in the case of ‘resultants with roots’).

-------

Please also see page 315 and 316 for death and rebirth thought moments.
I think in this case Re linking consciousness is equal to Bhava consciousness

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by SarathW »

Some intersting info about this subject please read page 151 of the following attachemtn.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/printguna.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: What is embryo thinking?

Post by SarathW »

Hi all
A link is provided by a forum member "dammafriend" in another discussion. I found that there is a wealth of information in regard to this discussion.
It appears to me that the sperm cell and the ovarim egg are mere sustenance for the "Gandhabba"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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