Do you believe in rebirth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

Do you believe in rebirth?

Yes
21
72%
No
2
7%
Don't know/not sure
2
7%
Don't care/not important
4
14%
 
Total votes: 29

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Jechbi
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Jechbi »

genkaku wrote:If the bar is not set at the realm of certainty, what becomes of Buddhism except as another realm of uncertainty, however beautifully it may be embellished?
What become of Buddhism is that certainty does not derive from beliefs one happens to hold. Which I think is what you (and your teacher) said.

Why do we look for certainty about our beliefs any way? Does it give us something that we need? Can we come to terms with uncertainty?

:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by kc2dpt »

Reading those of you who scorn belief... I wonder... before the Buddha was the Buddha, before he knew and saw Nibbana... we at least can develop confidence in his word... what did he have to go on?

"Seeing the danger in sensual pleasures — and renunciation as rest — I go to strive. That's where my heart delights." — Snp III.1

How did he know renunciation would be rest and not frustrated deprivation? Certainly the five ascetics were well practiced at renunciation and just as certainly they were not at rest.

"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding (nibbana)." — MN 36

How could he be sure there was such a Dhamma which would lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, to Nibbana? He had already sought out the wisest teachers he could find. How could he know if there was anything more to learn?

"I thought: "Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past, future, or present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'" — MN 36

Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. He couldn't have known, right?

"I thought: 'Could [jhana] be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'" — MN 36

He realized... what does that mean exactly? He knew? He believed? He hoped? He hadn't seen for himself yet. He didn't even have someone else's word to go on since no one else had seen either.

"My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" — MN 36

Now there was knowledge. Now there was no more room for belief. But I wonder... what about up to that point?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I voted yes, but I want to qualify that with the comment that I understand "bhava" to mean "becoming", which unlike some, I don't treat as being synonymous with rebirth.

Apologies if that's confusing or makes you want to call me a crypto-annihilationist.

:spy:

:rofl:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ben »

Nice post, Peter.
Also remember, Saddha (faith/confidence) is one of the seven bojjhangas (factors of enlightenment).
Interesting, isn't it?
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Jechbi
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Jechbi »

Peter wrote:Reading those of you who scorn belief...
Who's scorning belief?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Jechbi
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Jechbi »

Ben wrote:Also remember, Saddha (faith/confidence) is one of the seven bojjhangas (factors of enlightenment).
We should distinguish between the meaning of the word "beliefs" and the meaning of the word "Saddha," which has to do with conviction in a course of action, not in a descriptive proposition.

From here:
Because conviction is focused not on a descriptive proposition but on a course of action — the skillful mastery of the processes of kamma in a social context — these aspects [social, intellectual and practical] are inextricably intertwined. The social aspect comes from the need to associate with people who have already mastered these processes, learning from their words and emulating their actions. The intellectual aspect — belief in the principle of kamma — is necessary because the development of skillfulness within the mind requires that one understand the nature of kamma, take responsibility for one's actions, and have conviction in one's ability to benefit from developing one's skills. The practical aspect is necessary, for if one does not follow through in developing skill, it shows that one's conviction in the development of skillfulness is not genuine, and that one is not fully benefiting from one's beliefs.
This doesn't mean we have to scorn beliefs. It just means we have to recognize that we all have beliefs (which are not self), just like we all have noses on our faces. I'm not going to scorn the nose on my face. But I'm also not going to treasure every booger that falls out of it.

Metta

p.s. I voted 'yes,' just for full disclosure.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by kc2dpt »

Jechbi wrote:I'm not going to scorn the nose on my face. But I'm also not going to treasure every booger that falls out of it.
Who's treasuring belief? :tongue:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Ben
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ben »

Thanks Jechbi
Jechbi wrote:
Ben wrote:Also remember, Saddha (faith/confidence) is one of the seven bojjhangas (factors of enlightenment).
We should distinguish between the meaning of the word "beliefs" and the meaning of the word "Saddha," which has to do with conviction in a course of action, not in a descriptive proposition.
I think that's an important point and not well understood distinction.
Regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
nathan
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by nathan »

Peter wrote:Now there was knowledge. Now there was no more room for belief. But I wonder... what about up to that point?
In my case, because more than anything I considered it of the highest importance to be honest with myself, (or else why even bother seeking after truth) I admitted to myself that I did not know what to think and that because of that it was not possible for me to simply believe either something or anything. I recognized that before I would be satisfied with any kind of truth about anything I'd have to learn that truth beyond any doubt before I could accept it as irrefutable and undeniably the truth. That is the truth of my makeup in regards to anything and everything. So that is how I have gone about things. I have pursued anything and everything that could possibly lead to greater understanding regardless of the source. So now I am at the point where I 'know' all sorts of things beyond any doubt that most people do not believe.

There's nothing I can do about what people want to believe or not. However it may be that belief serves people, I do not begrudge anyone their use of it, I can't say it has ever served me but then my introduction to belief was in the form of indoctrination and domination; which is what I tend to continue to see as it's primary social role - to keep everyone 'in line'. Still, I have no reason to scorn anyone for believing anything they want or need to believe. However to be honest I have not used it or relied upon it and so I do not say that I have because that would be deceitful. I will note however that if this kind of disclosure is disturbing to some then I should be thankful to have had that made plain and I will not mention this again in the future and simply remain silent when such a question re-arises.
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Guy
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Guy »

If you can recall your past lives, then would it be correct to vote "no"? Since it would be a fact that you have remembered, rather than a belief. You don't say "I believe I ate vegemite on toast for breakfast" if you clearly remember doing so, do you?
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
nathan
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by nathan »

Guy wrote:If you can recall your past lives, then would it be correct to vote "no"? Since it would be a fact that you have remembered, rather than a belief. You don't say "I believe I ate vegemite on toast for breakfast" if you clearly remember doing so, do you?
You could say I had... or I know I had or I believe I had... You could say it either way and it should be correctly understood as having had said condiment on your toast for breakfast. However knowing that rebirth is a literal truth of existence is not an option on the survey and so I have not selected any of them.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ben
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ben »

Hi Guy

Well, that's why these sorts of discussions wth regards to kamma or rebirth tend to get 'interesting'. Not that I am suggesting that there is a sub-population of the membership at DW who can remember their past lives! (Maybe there is??). I think part of the difficulty lies in the fact that the path, for the vast majority of us, the path is characterised by the incremental revelation of the nature of reality via direct meditative experience (insight (naana:knowledge)). Yet many of us are living in or have grown up in cultures where a characteristic of the dominant religions is the power of salvation of belief. So I think it is not surprising that the quality of saddha (faith/confidence) in the Buddha Dhamma causes so much discussion.
The way that I look at it, saddha in Buddhism is a completely different beast to the absolute blind belief that one finds in, say, Christianity. In Buddhism, faith is a factor that leads one to insight. One cannot even begin to walk on the path without a scintilla of faith in a number of fundamental assumptions, including, a belief that there must be a better, happier, more wholesome, way of life. Then as we begin to practice Dhamma and we begin to notice some of the benefits for ourselves, there is the confidence that grows in the Dhamma. No doubt it is built on directly experiencing the benefits of practice, but it is also built on saddha (faith/confidence). If we had the attitude that something had to be proven to us before we would accept it, then we wouldn't even begin on the path.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

No doubt it is built on directly experiencing the benefits of practice, but it is also built on saddha (faith/confidence). If we had the attitude that something had to be proven to us before we would accept it, then we wouldn't even begin on the path.

I agree :goodpost:


However doesnt some of it get proven before we start, the first noble truth for example as well as anicca
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Guy wrote:If you can recall your past lives, then would it be correct to vote "no"? Since it would be a fact that you have remembered, rather than a belief. You don't say "I believe I ate vegemite on toast for breakfast" if you clearly remember doing so, do you?

I think the thread is about belief or disbelief in something that you have no knowledge of


If someone did remember living before then it wouldnt be a belief


metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
uniformsquare
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by uniformsquare »

It seems I am the only one that has chosen, Don't know/not sure. I am told by others this is true but I am yet to verify this for myself, I wonder if it is beneficial to hold this view. I'm not really a man of faith, but I do have a number of working assumptions.
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