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Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - Dhamma Wheel

Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:42 pm


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Sam Vara
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:51 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:54 am


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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:27 am

There's a very famous comedian here in Portugal that used to work for a journal of literature before becoming a comedian. He once interviewed a writer who wrote

"Autobiography in two verses:
My cats in the kitchen
play with the cockroaches"

He tried to interpret this poem, saying to her "I think what you're trying to say here is that the feline part of you, the part of you that is inteligent and agile plays with the part of you that is dark and unpleasant. Is that right?" She said: "No, no. It's just that I have two cats and they like to play with the cockroaches." This comedian says that that was the day he stopped trying to be a wise guy.

Why did I tell this story? Because I think that's what's going on with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's interpretation of this story (not in the sense that he's trying to be a wise guy; in the sense that he's seeing meaning nowhere to be found).

In short, I think that Frank Zappa summed up much of Christianity with that interpretation.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

vinasp
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby vinasp » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:03 am

Hi Mike,

Quote: "Any comments about this interpretation of the Dhamma?
"Whenever dualistic thoughts arise there is bound to be suffering... "
Quote: "I.e., I'm not sure what dual/not dual adds to the Dhamma."

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1] without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'" [DN 11 - Kevaddha Sutta.]

Regards, Vincent.

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ground
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby ground » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:02 am


vinasp
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby vinasp » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:02 am

Hi everyone,

Some thoughts:

1. All conceptual thinking is dualistic, all thinking based on words is dualistic.

2. I think that Ven. Buddhadasa is correct that awakening requires that one somehow
transcends dualistic thinking.

3. The word used for non-dualistic thinking is panna - wisdom.

4. The problem is not the dualistic thoughts which arise now, but the fact that previous
dualistic thinking has led to the construction of a dualistic 'reality'. This dualistic
construction is the prison in which we are held.

5. The word for this dualistic construction is papanca. The state in which such a
dualistic construction has ceased is called - nipapanca.

6. We use language to construct a false 'reality', and then we do not see what is actual.

7. So awakening requires that we see that concepts and words are limited. The actual
cannot be expressed in words. Reality is inconceivable, which means that you are not
what you think you are.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Bakmoon » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:19 am

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby ground » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:27 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:57 am

Dastardly dualism. Do I detect a bit of creeping Mahayana-ism?

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Aloka
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Aloka » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:10 am


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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:15 am


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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Aloka » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:44 am


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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:16 am


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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:30 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Mr Man
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Mr Man » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:37 pm


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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Mr Man » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:46 pm


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Dan74
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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Dan74 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:03 pm

I think that Buddhadasa's interpretation of the Garden of Eden story far from being "too clever" and "reading too much into it" is very natural.

The story itself gives many clues that its true meaning is hidden. The Tree is called Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why would God not want Adam and Eve to know Good and Evil? Moreover He says they will die and they do not. God lies? Also the omnipotent Creator must've known that this is precisely what would happen. The Serpent tells Eve that she would become like God and in a way this is what happens - she and Adam become self-aware (realized they were naked), which is of course the beginnings of dualism.

The ancients were no fools and though the story is a sort of a parable, a myth, psychologically its meaning it has many layers of meaning, which is not to say it was necessarily consciously concealed. A similar interpretation would be standard in Jungian psychology where there is a lot more detail about each of the characters and their roles in the psyche.

As for dualistic thinking, this is simply papanca. Conceptual proliferation of categories and attaching to one kind. The Buddha talked about this in the 4 Noble Truths - attachment and aversion - the greatest dualism of all. So I don't quite buy into this notion that it is imported from Advaita, non-Buddhist, a distraction from the Dhamma, etc. It's a pretty radical recognition that our thinking is profoundly dualistic which helps peer beyond these categories and hopefully see it how it is before it is filtered through conditioned categories.
_/|\_

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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Aloka » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:06 pm


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Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:58 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama


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