Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

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Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby Tom » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:26 am

Sylvester wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Hi Dave

I should explain my resort to AN 2.126 against a liberal reading of AN 3.65.

It would be a "gamble", if we discounted the voice of another as a necessary condition. I take the more conservative reading of the meaning of "condition" (paccaya) in AN 2.126 to mean a necessary condition, rather than a sufficient condition, for Stream Entry. As a necessary condition, the presence of the Buddha's voice is no guarantee that the auditor would make the breakthrough to the Dhamma.

The suttas qualify as a voice/voices of another/others, right?



Yes, I believe so.


Is there any proof that the suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:33 am

they are the recorded teachings of the buddha or disciple so yes they are be definition a record of that voice and thus count as.

there is no strict definition of what a voice of another is.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:42 am

Hi Charles

What do you think of AN 5.26?

There is no ATI translation but you can refer to this -

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 6-piya.pdf

Compare that against BB's translation, where a key difference lies in BB's translation of a knotty line that reads as "he experiences inspiration" versus Piya's translation based on the Commentary (see BB's long end-note 990).
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:10 am

I don't have a copy of BB's translation of the Anguttara. :cry: Which of part of Piya's translation corresponds to BB's "he experiences inspiration"?
Thanks.
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby Tom » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:12 am

I don't have a copy on me either right now :thinking:
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:32 am

The Pali in question is -

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthapaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca


BB translates it as -

...in just that way he experiences inspiration in the meaning and inspiration in the Dhamma


Piya's very idiomatic translation compresses the 2 relative clauses into an easier "English" idiom that reads -

he knows the goal and he knows the Dharma [he knows the spirit of the Dharma and the
letter of the Dharma]

(alternative in parentheses)


You can see from BB's notes citing the Commentarial gloss on the clause, that Piya probably followed the Commentary.

Yet, Piya also makes this interesting observation -

Each of these exercises should lead one to “knowing the goal and the Dharma” [“knowing the spirit of the
Dharma and the letter of the Dharma”] (attha,paisavedī ca hoti dhamma,paisavedī ca), that is, understanding that true purpose of the Teaching and the wisdom it entails.

The importance of the interesting phrase—“knowing the goal and the Dharma”—is found in at least
four other discourses, such as the Mahā Gopālaka Sutta (M 33), where the two terms—attha,veda and
dhamma,veda—appear in the same context, that of listening to the Dharma:
1
Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu Tathāgata-p,pavedite Here, bhikshus, a monk, when the Dharma
dhamma,vinaye desiyamāne and Vinaya of the Tathagata is being taught,
labhati attha,veda, gains inspired knowledge in the goal,
labhati dhamma,veda, gains inspired knowledge in the Dharma,
labhati dhammûpasahita pāmujja… gains joy connected with Dharma;…
(M 33.10/1:221,80, 33.22/1:224,2-3)
It is interesting to note that veda, which usually means “knowledge,” here has the sense of “joy or
inspiration” connected with spiritual knowing. As pointed out elsewhere,
2
attha,veda (“inspired
knowledge in the goal”) refers to a clear understanding of the purpose of the spiritual life, that is,
awakening: this is the quality the streamwinner who is a faith-follower (saddhā’nusārī).
3
In this sutta, this
refers to one who “knows the goal” (attha,paisavedī). Dhamma,veda (“inspired knowledge in the
Dharma”) refers to a deep understanding of reality, which characterizes the stream-winner who is a truthfollower (dhammânusārī).
4
In this sutta, this is one who “knows the Dharma” (dhamma,paisavedī).


BB makes the very same observation in note 990. Odd that Piya, having noticed this as well, decided to go with the Commentary.

PS - I just noticed that BB also took the liberty to render another part of this sutta in an easier English idiom, to break the repetition. Hee hee.
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:45 am

Thanks for your time Sylvester. This is very helpful.
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby daverupa » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:09 pm

So does "gaining inspiration in the meaning and ...the Dhamma" designate that, whether sadha- or dhamma-nusari, that differential is specifically said to become blended in the stream-entrant?

I had this thought that the 'dvenusari' were each approaching the seeing of paticcasamuppada in one or another way (forward or reverse, arising or cessation), while the sotapanna saw the whole shebang.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do suttas qualify as a "voice of another"?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:43 am

I'm not sure Dave. The 2 who have entered the course of rightness that leads to Stream Entry have not yet personally seen This-That Conditionality. I'm still studing the Pali and both translations to see how they dovetail with the Follower typologies.
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