Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:
Any comments about this interpretation of the Dhamma?
Whenever dualistic thoughts arise there is bound to be suffering...
It made me think of the teaching to Bāhiya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:Non-dualism is at best is a tool, at worst, it is the worst sort of dualism.
Why the worst? Being fully committed to Non-dualism as a tool would be hard work if it didn't give results.
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4528
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Dan74 »

I think that Buddhadasa's interpretation of the Garden of Eden story far from being "too clever" and "reading too much into it" is very natural.

The story itself gives many clues that its true meaning is hidden. The Tree is called Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why would God not want Adam and Eve to know Good and Evil? Moreover He says they will die and they do not. God lies? Also the omnipotent Creator must've known that this is precisely what would happen. The Serpent tells Eve that she would become like God and in a way this is what happens - she and Adam become self-aware (realized they were naked), which is of course the beginnings of dualism.

The ancients were no fools and though the story is a sort of a parable, a myth, psychologically its meaning it has many layers of meaning, which is not to say it was necessarily consciously concealed. A similar interpretation would be standard in Jungian psychology where there is a lot more detail about each of the characters and their roles in the psyche.

As for dualistic thinking, this is simply papanca. Conceptual proliferation of categories and attaching to one kind. The Buddha talked about this in the 4 Noble Truths - attachment and aversion - the greatest dualism of all. So I don't quite buy into this notion that it is imported from Advaita, non-Buddhist, a distraction from the Dhamma, etc. It's a pretty radical recognition that our thinking is profoundly dualistic which helps peer beyond these categories and hopefully see it how it is before it is filtered through conditioned categories.
_/|\_
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Aloka »

Mr Man wrote: It made me think of the teaching to Bāhiya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
In "Small Boat, Great Mountain -Theravada Reflections on the Natural Great Perfection" with a forward by Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Ajahn Amaro mentions the above sutta on page 19. He also quotes ud 8.1 Nibbana Sutta on the previous page (though I think his translation must be the BB version and this one I'm quoting is by John Ireland) :
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
and after the ud 8.1quote, Ajahn Amaro comments:
Rigpa, non-dual awareness, is the direct knowing of this. It's the quality of mind that knows, while abiding nowhere.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:In No Religion http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... ORELIG.HTM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; he writes:
Buddhadasa Bhikkhu wrote:The word "die" provides another example. In people
language, "to die" means that the bodily functions have stopped,
which is the kind of death we can see with our eyes. However, "die"
in the language used by God has quite a different meaning, such as
when he spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden telling them not
to eat the fruit of a certain tree, "for in the day that you eat of it
you shall die" (Gen. 2:17). Eventually, Adam and Eve ate that fruit,
but we know that they didn't die in the ordinary sense, the kind that
puts people into coffins.
I think that again Buddhadasa is reading too much into ancient texts. The morale of Genesis 3 is simply that Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command and suffered the consequences.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by m0rl0ck »

mikenz66 wrote:
Any comments about this interpretation of the Dhamma?

:anjali:
Mike
I think he is giving the god botherers way too much credit for wisdom and subtlety. The take home message as far as im concerned about the garden of eden myth, is that an all knowing, all powerful, reputedly loving and merciful god, set a trap that he knew would be sprung by the fallible creatures he created and that as a result, eons of suffering would ensue.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by ancientbuddhism »

When Buddhadasa taught Dhamma he was more intent on impressing the meaning of it than some dogma it seemed to be couched in. He loved to extrapolate this past the surface meaning of dogma in metaphor.

Also, I really don’t think that the central aim of the creation passages in the Ḥumash was lost on him, or that he was trying to make some facile Buddhist/Christian comparison as Thích Nhất Hạnh has been known to make. I just think that he caught another meaning, a skillful means as it were, that we can come away with; one that communicates with our daily lives. Specifically in the OP is his reference to a spiritual death as making the assumption that the surface appearance of self and other (= duality) is real. This is a theme he has used often where paṭiccasamuppāda is discussed. For Buddhadasa this assumption bears both the symbolic birth of 'I am' and the symbolic death of liberating knowledge. With the use of metaphor he is sweeping past the mere doctrinal assumptions of Christian or Buddhist, to find a central meaning we can work with.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Aloka »

ancientbuddhism wrote:I just think that he caught another meaning, a skillful means as it were, that we can come away with; one that communicates with our daily lives. Specifically in the OP is his reference to a spiritual death as making the assumption that the surface appearance of self and other (= duality) is real. This is a theme he has used often where paṭiccasamuppāda is discussed. For Buddhadasa this assumption bears both the symbolic birth of 'I am' and the symbolic death of liberating knowledge. With the use of metaphor he is sweeping past the mere doctrinal assumptions of Christian or Buddhist, to find a central meaning we can work with.
Yes, I agree with this, ancientbuddhism, - and I have found reading some of Buddhadasa's teachings to be very helpful in the past.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by Spiny Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote: This is a theme he has used often where paṭiccasamuppāda is discussed. For Buddhadasa this assumption bears both the symbolic birth of 'I am' and the symbolic death of liberating knowledge. With the use of metaphor he is sweeping past the mere doctrinal assumptions of Christian or Buddhist, to find a central meaning we can work with.
For me the problem is that I don't find Buddhadasa's interpretation of paticcasamuppada convincing, and I find his attempt to translate this to the Genesis story even less convincing. I think there is a subtext to Genesis 3, but it's about loss of innocence, not the death of liberating knowledge ( whatever that means ). Sure, one can talk metaphorically about birth as a beginning and death as an ending, but I find Buddhadasas interpretation too convoluted to be convincing.

And while one can read more or less anything into a religious text, I think a good starting point is the application of Occams razor.
;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Forbidden Fruit: Frank Zappa vs. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

Post by ancientbuddhism »

porpoise wrote: For me the problem is that I don't find Buddhadasa's interpretation of paticcasamuppada convincing…
Buddhadasa does not communicate to everyone, this is why we have different teachers.
porpoise wrote:…and I find his attempt to translate this to the Genesis story even less convincing. I think there is a subtext to Genesis 3…
To be fair, he wasn’t presenting a theses either. His homiletic approach is rather evident.
porpoise wrote:… one can talk metaphorically about birth as a beginning and death as an ending, but I find Buddhadasas interpretation too convoluted to be convincing.

And while one can read more or less anything into a religious text, I think a good starting point is the application of Occams razor.
I don’t see where reading anything is going on here. Buddhadasa is discussing a rather common dynamic of Buddha-Dhamma where presumptive knowledge generates suffering and a ‘fate worse than death’ in the ‘faring on’ (saṃsāra) dynamic of dukkha.. To his purpose an Occam’s razor can be found in the Nikāyas:
  • SN. 22.47 Samanupassanā suttaṃ

    Sāvatthiyaṃ:
    Ye hi keci bhikkhave, samaṇāvā brahmaṇā vā anekavihitaṃ attānaṃ samanupassamānā samanupassanti, sabbe te pañcupādānakkhandhe samanupassanti, etesaṃ vā aññataraṃ.

    Katame pañca?

    At Sāvatthi. “Monks, there are ascetics and Brahmins who hold the viewpoint of a ‘Self’, in various and particular ways, all of which pertain to the five-bases of conditionality subject to be identified with. Which five?”

    Idha bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto, rūpaṃ attato samanupassati rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, …vedanaṃ attato samanupassati vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā vedanaṃ,vedanasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, … saññaṃ attato samanupassati saññāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ attani vā saññaṃ saññasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, … saṅkhāre attato samanupassati saṅkharāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā saṅkhāraṃ,saṅkhārasmiṃ vā attānaṃ, … viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ attati vā viññāṇaṃ viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

    “Monks, there is an untaught-commoner who does not take notice of the Wise Ones, who is not trained in the Doctrines of the Wise Ones nor is he possessed of the wisdom of the Doctrines of the Wise Ones - who does not take notice of Refined Persons, who is not trained in the Doctrines of the Refined Persons nor is he possessed of the wisdom of the Doctrines of the Refined Persons, He is of the viewpoint that materiality is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses materiality, or materiality is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in materiality. He is of the viewpoint that sensations of feeling are ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses sensations of feeling, or sensations of feeling are in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in sensations of feeling. He is of the viewpoint that sense-awareness is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses sense-awareness, or sense-awareness is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in sense-awareness. He is of the viewpoint that volitional-cognition is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses volitional-cognition, or volitional-cognition is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in volitional-cognition. He is of the viewpoint that consciousness is ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ possesses consciousness, or consciousness is in ‘Self’, or ‘Self’ is in consciousness.

    Iti ayañceva samanupassanā asmīti cassa avigataṃ hoti. Asmīti kho pana bhikkhave avigate, pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ avakkanti hoti: cakkhunadriyassa sotindriyassa ghānindriyassa jivhindriyassa kāyindriyassa. Atthi bhikkhave mano atthi dhammā, atthi avijjādhātu avijjāsamphassajena bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa asmīti'pissa hoti, ayamahamasmīti'pissa hoti bhavissanti pi'ssa hoti, rūpī bhavissanti'pissa hoti, arūpī bhavissanti'pissa hoti. Saññī bhavissanti'pissa hoti, asañañī bhavissanti'pissa hoti. Nevasaññīnāsañañī bhavissanti'pissa hoti.

    Therefore because of these viewpoints this ‘I am’ has not vanished. Therefore, monks, because this ‘I am’ has not vanished, he is beset with these five characteristics; the eye characteristic, the ear characteristic, the nose characteristic, the tongue characteristic and the body characteristic. There exists, monks, the mind and there exists its phenomena. Where there exists the factor of ignorance, monks, born of ignorant contact, the untaught-commoner is influenced by sensations; thus it occurs to him ‘I am’, thus it occurs to him ‘I am this’, thus it occurs to him ‘I exist’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall not exist’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall be composed of materiality’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall not be composed of materiality’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall not be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it occurs to him ‘I shall consist of neither sense-awareness nor not of sense-awareness’.

    Tiṭṭhanti kho pana bhikkhave, tattheva pañcindriyāni, athettha sutavato ariyasāvakassa avijjā pahīyati, vijjā uppajjati, tassa avijjāvirāgā vijjuppādā asmīti'pissa na hoti. Ayamahamasmiti'pissa na hoti, bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, na bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, saññī bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, asaññī bhavissanti'pissa na hoti, nevasaññīnāsaññi bhavissanti'pissa na hotīti.

    Monks, the five characteristics exist right there, although for the learned noble disciple; ignorance has been abandoned and knowledge has arisen. Therefore with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of knowledge; thus it does not occur to him ‘I am’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I am this’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I exist’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall not exist’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall be composed of materiality’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall not be composed of materiality’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall not be composed of sense-awareness’, thus it does not occur to him ‘I shall consist of neither sense-awareness nor not of sense-awareness’.
It is not so much a stretch really. With the birth of ignorance and 'I am' is the absence, or death, of what?
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
Post Reply