Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:23 am

Annapurna wrote:I
Would you want to pay your hard-earned money for dental treatments & oral surgery to a man, who is distracted by a cleavage and not able to do his best for you?
That is why I go to a female dentist; her cleavage gives me something to think about during my root canals.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Alobha » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:48 am

Annapurna wrote:Would you want to pay your hard-earned money for dental treatments & oral surgery to a man, who is distracted by a cleavage and not able to do his best for you?


You're assuming that he might do bad work because he is distracted. Maybe he enjoys working with pretty women so much that he is working in a happier and more concentrated state of mind because he likes so much to be at work? Nobody knows.

I have the feeling you trivialize and mock the "jealousy" of the woman, her fear of loss. Is that so?

While I find the jealousy of the woman understandable, it is horrible that this is the cause for a person to get fired and possibly face poverty and hunger. Does the wife want to forbid her husband from speaking and looking at any other woman? jealousy issues are not dealt by this way and not by controlling one's partner but by changing the inner attitude and putting trust in the partner and the relationship. Where was the compassion of the wife for the female worker when she seemed to press the husband to fire the woman? There wasn't any. Just jealousy and ill-will. The wife could've also tried to befriend the female worker to make sure that she isn't a threat etc. But sending her on the threat and not caring at all seemed easier I guess. One just can't help but make fun of this ridiculous behaviour.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Aloka » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Annapurna wrote:I
Would you want to pay your hard-earned money for dental treatments & oral surgery to a man, who is distracted by a cleavage and not able to do his best for you?
That is why I go to a female dentist; her cleavage gives me something to think about during my root canals.



:clap:
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:50 am

Alobha wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Would you want to pay your hard-earned money for dental treatments & oral surgery to a man, who is distracted by a cleavage and not able to do his best for you?


You're assuming that he might do bad work because he is distracted. Maybe he enjoys working with pretty women so much that he is working in a happier and more concentrated state of mind because he likes so much to be at work? Nobody knows.

I have the feeling you trivialize and mock the "jealousy" of the woman, her fear of loss. Is that so?


While I find the jealousy of the woman understandable, it is horrible that this is the cause for a person to get fired and possibly face poverty and hunger. Does the wife want to forbid her husband from speaking and looking at any other woman? jealousy issues are not dealt by this way and not by controlling one's partner but by changing the inner attitude and putting trust in the partner and the relationship. Where was the compassion of the wife for the female worker when she seemed to press the husband to fire the woman? There wasn't any. Just jealousy and ill-will. The wife could've also tried to befriend the female worker to make sure that she isn't a threat etc. But sending her on the threat and not caring at all seemed easier I guess. One just can't help but make fun of this ridiculous behaviour.


You're assuming that he might do bad work because he is distracted. Maybe he enjoys working with pretty women so much that he is working in a happier and more concentrated state of mind because he likes so much to be at work? Nobody knows.


No, I am not assuming, I have clicked the link and read the whole article, -have you?

In this link you could have read:

At trial, Knight testified he had complained to Nelson on several occasions that her clothing was too tight, revealing and “distracting.”


So he did not enjoy it, he complained several times and she wouldn't oblige.
I wouldn't have been so patient with her. She'd gotten a written warning from me, after which you can fire an employee here, who doesn't perform as requested.

While I find the jealousy of the woman understandable, it is horrible that this is the cause for a person to get fired and possibly face poverty and hunger.


Well, it's not like she had not been warned!

Should have obliged! Wouldn't have had to cry later!

And isn't she entitled to unemployment money...?
And if she so attractive, Im am sure another doctor will be happy to employ her.

The wife has probably a harder time to find peace of mind with the bomb-shell around, or perhaps finding a new husband...a new father for the kids....

Does the wife want to forbid her husband from speaking and looking at any other woman?


I don't know, perhaps she is a nice and decent lady who is just realist enough to see a danger for her marriage when there is one!

jealousy issues are not dealt by this way and not by controlling one's partner but by changing the inner attitude and putting trust in the partner and the relationship.


True, I totally agree! However, trust is as fragile as glass....

And here, trust, has already been broken, when he stepped over the line:

he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.


His wife found the messages. .

I can imagine that she was devastated. And NO PROMISE IN THE WORLD can remove her worries as well as the tempation being removed!

Where was the compassion of the wife for the female worker when she seemed to press the husband to fire the woman? There wasn't any. Just jealousy and ill-will.


Why is it "ill will" when you try to save your marriage and for your children the father? Is a marriage worthless, nowadays?

Does a wife have to silently watch and endure it, when her husband is being led into temptation by a siren, who doesn't even oblige to his request she dress in a decent manner?

I think that's ill will from the assistant, very ill will....

The wife could've also tried to befriend the female worker to make sure that she isn't a threat etc.


Those are unrealistic notions, my dear. Usually a practice is brimming with business, at least here they are, with mandatory health care.
A doctor's wife could not appear in a practice and try to sound some girl out, leave alone befriendong staff, that would be a little out there, lol...

My father was a doctor and my mother would have never gone to his practice to sound some girl out, she was the bosses wife and she would have disgraced herself by doing so.

But sending her on the threat and not caring at all seemed easier I guess. One just can't help but make fun of this ridiculous behaviour.


Make fun of it?

Perhaps it's not so funny anymore when you picture in your mind, that your mother had been in the wife's situation and tried to defend her family against a third party.

Who didn't care about her bosses wish for appropriate cloths, as any boss can ask for.

What comes around goes around--!

Karma. Got back what she gave--not caring!

Hope she learned!

And--let's assume we are so evolved, as practising Buddhists, that we are way above "ridiculous behaviour..."

(Btw, earlier you said:
"While I find the jealousy of the woman understandable").

Do we not still have compassion and patience with animals, scared of loss?

Why then not with a human being?

Was she not our mother before, in countless previous lives....?
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:53 am

The wife needs to grow up.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:03 pm

Goodness.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Sambojjhanga » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:24 pm

I'm curious as to those who think that the correct decision here was made.

Do you not see the problem with the Dentist sending the employee sexually suggestive texts? Does this not somewhat indicate to you that the story that the woman who was fired was simply wearing too tight dresses and refused to stop is at least not the full story?

My point here is that when you are a so-called "job creator" and have such power over other's lives, their very income, then you must be VERY CAREFUL as to how you deal with this.

Yes, the woman shouldn't have worn too-tight dresses and the guy shouldn't have asked her if she ever orgasmed. But to cause someone to lose their income over THIS (assuming the woman's work was up to par), is really a travesty.

We are in a very serious economic downturn in this country, actually, the entire world. Good jobs are hard to come by. I think this was a terrible decision by the state Supreme Court.
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The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby yawares » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:53 pm

Dear Members,

I don't worry about the pretty girl that was fired...she can find a new good job anyday...better than get killed/hurt/confronted by jealous/crazy wife. There were doctor's wife/dentist's wife that showed up at the clinic and told a lady patient that she was the doctor's wife/dentist's wife...a true story indeed.......BELIEVE IT OR NOT !!!

Have you ever heard of the news about....[b]dentist Clara Harris guilty of murder for running her cheating husband over with a Mercedes-Benz sentenced her to 20 years in prison ???? Such a big news..dentist wife ran over her (dentist) husband!!! [/b]

Please click: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/ ... 54202.html

I think this world will be a very nice place to live if all people observe the Buddha's 5 Precepts :anjali:
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Sambojjhanga » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:04 pm

yawares wrote:
I think this world will be a very nice place to live if all people observe the Buddha's 5 Precepts :anjali:
yawares


This I agree with most fully!

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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:32 pm

Sambojjhanga wrote:I'm curious as to those who think that the correct decision here was made.

Do you not see the problem with the Dentist sending the employee sexually suggestive texts? Does this not somewhat indicate to you that the story that the woman who was fired was simply wearing too tight dresses and refused to stop is at least not the full story?

My point here is that when you are a so-called "job creator" and have such power over other's lives, their very income, then you must be VERY CAREFUL as to how you deal with this.

Yes, the woman shouldn't have worn too-tight dresses and the guy shouldn't have asked her if she ever orgasmed. But to cause someone to lose their income over THIS (assuming the woman's work was up to par), is really a travesty.

We are in a very serious economic downturn in this country, actually, the entire world. Good jobs are hard to come by. I think this was a terrible decision by the state Supreme Court.


Do you not see the problem with the Dentist sending the employee sexually suggestive texts?


I do. But they came after his futile appeals to dress less provocatetively, if we are to believe these attempts took place.
If yes, his restance was slowly but surely getting undermined...

Does this not somewhat indicate to you that the story that the woman who was fired was simply wearing too tight dresses and refused to stop is at least not the full story?


It could be it was different, but we can only judge it by what those involved testified.

I tend to believe the dentist, because a friend of mine told me the exact same story many moons ago, when he complained about a female colleague, who was sitting across the table and bending forrward a lot with half naked breasts. He also complained, asking her to wear less provocative cloths, as he wanted to work here and not struggle with an erection half of the day, but she refused to.

The end of the story was that he was allowed to sit elsewhere, where he didn't see her half exposed breasts each time he looked up from the screen.

The denrist would have sat even closer to the assistant when treating a patient.

My point here is that when you are a so-called "job creator" and have such power over other's lives, their very income, then you must be VERY CAREFUL as to how you deal with this.


I'm rather confident that most medical academics are fully aware of their responsibilties, especially towards their patients, I personally, like most women, also know, that men are men, whatever the thin veneer of a job there may be.

Adam is still easily tempted by Eve.

Yes, the woman shouldn't have worn too-tight dresses and the guy shouldn't have asked her if she ever orgasmed.


Not to be nitpicking, I think he asked something slightly different, which was a sad evidence of his thoughts geoing into the wrong direction.

And if it is so, that she wore too tight close, and didn't oblige to his requests to protect all involved from what happened later, she is fully respinsible for losing her jon and I am sorry, some won't listen and have to learn the hard way.

I'm sure she will never dress that way again.

But to cause someone to lose their income over THIS (assuming the woman's work was up to par), is really a travesty.

We are in a very serious economic downturn in this country, actually, the entire world. Good jobs are hard to come by. I think this was a terrible decision by the state Supreme Court.


Well, we should all know that..... And should value holding a good job....

I am for instance self-employed and my bosses are all my customers. If I don't keep them happy, I lose them, and thus my income, it's that simple.
It's a wild world and we better get used to it. Don't play nice and you might cry later.

There must be a reason why the Supreme court decided this way.

We only read a short summary, but they had a lot more information and evidence.

Often, character witnesses are called to testify.

Lets assume she WAS wearing very sexy cloths, and other assistants and patients would have testified to this.

Lets assume he is otherwise known as having an excellent reputation...there you go.

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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Hickersonia » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:48 pm

Ethically, morally, perhaps a questionable decision.

Legally, in an "at-will employment" state, it is likely that no one can argue against it.

In an "at-will" state, unless there is an explicit written contract stating otherwise, the employer can [nearly always] terminate employment for any reason, or without a reason at all, even without notice.

In this case, the employer is basically firing her for failure to adhere to dress code (if he indeed asked her to dress more appropriately).

Ultimately, as armchair philosophers, we're really in no position to judge any of this either way. All we really know is what was reported by this news article, and I'd say that it was sketchy at best. I feel bad for the "pretty lady" loosing her job, but that has nothing to do with the legality of the matter.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:09 pm

I agree, Hickersonia.

I don't know what an at-will state is, but it happened in Iowa, in a dentists practice, so there must have been a proper work contract and she battled the reason for getting laid off.

Surely it is sad she lost her job...but these assistants usually change a lot, at least where I live, because many of them get married young and are stay at home moms for a while...so there is always demand.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:53 pm

But sometime in 2009, he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.


It sounds like a classic case of 'blaming the victim.' She wore provocative clothes. So what? There didn't appear to be any official dress code. And then he pursued her in those text messages, which she did not respond to.

Hickersonia wrote:In an "at-will" state, unless there is an explicit written contract stating otherwise, the employer can [nearly always] terminate employment for any reason, or without a reason at all, even without notice.


It is also sometimes called 'right to work state' which we have here in Nevada where an employee cannot be forced to join a union and also where employers can terminate an employee for any reason. But there is an exception that an employer cannot terminate for civil rights violations. Currently "being too attractive" is not a protected class. As a dentist, he is also a private business man, running a private company, so the general rule is that he can terminate for any reason (under current laws). Perhaps it might be a good idea to change the law to something like Portugal has (as reported by MP above) where a valid reason must be given for termination.

Maybe it is because I live in Las Vegas, but I don't see this as a valid termination. Here just about every woman shows cleavage, especially in summer when temperatures are well above 100 (40 Celsius). It is not a big deal and no one pays any attention to the cleavage since it is so common. He shouldn't have terminated her for another big reason: she potentially still has a case against him -- for sexual harassment.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:58 pm

Here is what the Buddha said: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e.html#ch4

II. The Husband

The Buddha, in reply to a householder as to how a husband should minister to his wife declared that the husband should always honor and respect his wife, by being faithful to her, by giving her the requisite authority to manage domestic affairs and by giving her befitting ornaments. This advice, given over twenty five centuries ago, still stands good for today.

Knowing the psychology of the man who tends to consider himself superior, the Buddha made a remarkable change and uplifted the status of a woman by a simple suggestion that a husband should honor and respect his wife. A husband should be faithful to his wife, which means that a husband should fulfill and maintain his marital obligations to his wife thus sustaining the confidence in the marital relationship in every sense of the word. The husband, being a bread-winner, would invariably stay away from home, hence he should entrust the domestic or household duties to the wife who should be considered as the keeper and the distributor of the property and the home economic-administrator. The provision of befitting ornaments to the wife should be symbolic of the husband's love, care and attention showered on the wife. This symbolic practice has been carried out from time immemorial in Buddhist communities. Unfortunately it is in danger of dying out because of the influence of modern civilization.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:14 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:It sounds like a classic case of 'blaming the victim.' She wore provocative clothes. So what? There didn't appear to be any official dress code. And then he pursued her in those text messages, which she did not respond to.


She should have....

I tell you what I would have done. I would have sat down with him and told him very kindly that I feel very honored and flattered that he likes me, but that I think I must quit my job, because I don't want to cause any complications.

Alternative: he thinks of me as a daughter, a sister and stops seeing me in this way and if it helps him if I wear less sexy cloths I would be happy to oblige.

I have always benefitted from this type of openness and consideration, for all of the parties involved,

Maybe it is because I live in Las Vegas


Maybe so, but is it not different to work closely with someone than have a stranger pass you by?

I don't see this as a valid termination


It's irrelevant what you and I and others think, you see. The Supreme court decides...
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:21 pm

DN31
(i) by being courteous to her, (ii) by not despising her, (iii) by being faithful to her, (iv) by handing over authority to her, (v) by providing her with adornments.

but there are also duties to employees
(i) by assigning them work according to their ability, (ii) by supplying them with food and with wages, (iii) by tending them in sickness, (iv) by sharing with them any delicacies, (v) by granting them leave at times.

he failed in both counts here. he sexually harrassed the employee, and betrayed his wife's trust.

Annapurna wrote:Here is what the Buddha said: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e.html#ch4

II. The Husband

The Buddha, in reply to a householder as to how a husband should minister to his wife declared that the husband should always honor and respect his wife, by being faithful to her, by giving her the requisite authority to manage domestic affairs and by giving her befitting ornaments. This advice, given over twenty five centuries ago, still stands good for today.

Knowing the psychology of the man who tends to consider himself superior, the Buddha made a remarkable change and uplifted the status of a woman by a simple suggestion that a husband should honor and respect his wife. A husband should be faithful to his wife, which means that a husband should fulfill and maintain his marital obligations to his wife thus sustaining the confidence in the marital relationship in every sense of the word. The husband, being a bread-winner, would invariably stay away from home, hence he should entrust the domestic or household duties to the wife who should be considered as the keeper and the distributor of the property and the home economic-administrator. The provision of befitting ornaments to the wife should be symbolic of the husband's love, care and attention showered on the wife. This symbolic practice has been carried out from time immemorial in Buddhist communities. Unfortunately it is in danger of dying out because of the influence of modern civilization.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:03 pm

Anna,

We're so far away in what concerns this subject, that it's best not even discuss it.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Annapurna » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:18 pm

He was definitely failing them, Cittasanto, yes!

The admirable thing about him is, though, that he realized this situation would only get worse and so it had to stop.

He had 2 options:

1. Give up being a dentist, close his practice, lay ALL staff off and cause them problems and throw his own family into poverty.

2. Lay off the assistant.

He chose the option that caused harm to as few people as possible.

It wasn't perfect, it's definitely harmful to the assistant, but at least she has a husband, as well as unemployment money and will be provided for until she finds as new job.

As I read in another article, the dentist sat down holding hands with his wife and spoke about everything with her and he also spoke with his priest. I understand he is a practicing Christian and by wanting a woman in his thoughts he is breaking the commandments, -is as good as adultery. Also, of course, if his wife feels the marriage is in jeopardy, he would take her fear seriously.

What he did was the result of these all these thoughts and conversations...

Of course I don't the details....so..who knows...
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:26 pm

From what I know it sounds like rubbish spewing forth from his mouth to try and cover himself.
he did have another option, act professionally, otherwise the Burkha option is all that is left.

one thing this case has shown other employers is a way to bully people legally for sexual stimulous.
I can not remember who said it, but yes if someone turns down advances they can be fired for being too attractive.

this is not the only instance I know of, there was another case where someone was fired for being too attractive, and they had placed on them all sorts of restrictions for their dress which no other had to follow.

I am actually disgusted to be the same sex as these people.

Annapurna wrote:He was definitely failing them, Cittasanto, yes!

The admirable thing about him is, though, that he realized this situation would only get worse and so it had to stop.

He had 2 options:

1. Give up being a dentist, close his practice, lay ALL staff off and cause them problems and throw his own family into poverty.

2. Lay off the assistant.

He chose the option that caused harm to as few people as possible.

It wasn't perfect, it's definitely harmful to the assistant, but at least she has a husband, as well as unemployment money and will be provided for until she finds as new job.

As I read in another article, the dentist sat down holding hands with his wife and spoke about everything with her and he also spoke with his priest. I understand he is a practicing Christian and by wanting a woman in his thoughts he is breaking the commandments, -is as good as adultery. Also, of course, if his wife feels the marriage is in jeopardy, he would take her fear seriously.

What he did was the result of these all these thoughts and conversations...

Of course I don't the details....so..who knows...
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Postby Ben » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The wife needs to grow up.


Agree.
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