Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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Hickersonia
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Hickersonia »

Ethically, morally, perhaps a questionable decision.

Legally, in an "at-will employment" state, it is likely that no one can argue against it.

In an "at-will" state, unless there is an explicit written contract stating otherwise, the employer can [nearly always] terminate employment for any reason, or without a reason at all, even without notice.

In this case, the employer is basically firing her for failure to adhere to dress code (if he indeed asked her to dress more appropriately).

Ultimately, as armchair philosophers, we're really in no position to judge any of this either way. All we really know is what was reported by this news article, and I'd say that it was sketchy at best. I feel bad for the "pretty lady" loosing her job, but that has nothing to do with the legality of the matter.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Annapurna »

I agree, Hickersonia.

I don't know what an at-will state is, but it happened in Iowa, in a dentists practice, so there must have been a proper work contract and she battled the reason for getting laid off.

Surely it is sad she lost her job...but these assistants usually change a lot, at least where I live, because many of them get married young and are stay at home moms for a while...so there is always demand.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by DNS »

But sometime in 2009, he also began exchanging text messages with Nelson. Most of these were work-related and harmless, according to testimony. But others were more suggestive, including one in which Knight asked Nelson how often she had an orgasm. She never answered the text.
It sounds like a classic case of 'blaming the victim.' She wore provocative clothes. So what? There didn't appear to be any official dress code. And then he pursued her in those text messages, which she did not respond to.
Hickersonia wrote: In an "at-will" state, unless there is an explicit written contract stating otherwise, the employer can [nearly always] terminate employment for any reason, or without a reason at all, even without notice.
It is also sometimes called 'right to work state' which we have here in Nevada where an employee cannot be forced to join a union and also where employers can terminate an employee for any reason. But there is an exception that an employer cannot terminate for civil rights violations. Currently "being too attractive" is not a protected class. As a dentist, he is also a private business man, running a private company, so the general rule is that he can terminate for any reason (under current laws). Perhaps it might be a good idea to change the law to something like Portugal has (as reported by MP above) where a valid reason must be given for termination.

Maybe it is because I live in Las Vegas, but I don't see this as a valid termination. Here just about every woman shows cleavage, especially in summer when temperatures are well above 100 (40 Celsius). It is not a big deal and no one pays any attention to the cleavage since it is so common. He shouldn't have terminated her for another big reason: she potentially still has a case against him -- for sexual harassment.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

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Here is what the Buddha said: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e.html#ch4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
II. The Husband

The Buddha, in reply to a householder as to how a husband should minister to his wife declared that the husband should always honor and respect his wife, by being faithful to her, by giving her the requisite authority to manage domestic affairs and by giving her befitting ornaments. This advice, given over twenty five centuries ago, still stands good for today.

Knowing the psychology of the man who tends to consider himself superior, the Buddha made a remarkable change and uplifted the status of a woman by a simple suggestion that a husband should honor and respect his wife. A husband should be faithful to his wife, which means that a husband should fulfill and maintain his marital obligations to his wife thus sustaining the confidence in the marital relationship in every sense of the word. The husband, being a bread-winner, would invariably stay away from home, hence he should entrust the domestic or household duties to the wife who should be considered as the keeper and the distributor of the property and the home economic-administrator. The provision of befitting ornaments to the wife should be symbolic of the husband's love, care and attention showered on the wife. This symbolic practice has been carried out from time immemorial in Buddhist communities. Unfortunately it is in danger of dying out because of the influence of modern civilization.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Annapurna »

David N. Snyder wrote: It sounds like a classic case of 'blaming the victim.' She wore provocative clothes. So what? There didn't appear to be any official dress code. And then he pursued her in those text messages, which she did not respond to.
She should have....

I tell you what I would have done. I would have sat down with him and told him very kindly that I feel very honored and flattered that he likes me, but that I think I must quit my job, because I don't want to cause any complications.

Alternative: he thinks of me as a daughter, a sister and stops seeing me in this way and if it helps him if I wear less sexy cloths I would be happy to oblige.

I have always benefitted from this type of openness and consideration, for all of the parties involved,
Maybe it is because I live in Las Vegas
Maybe so, but is it not different to work closely with someone than have a stranger pass you by?
I don't see this as a valid termination
It's irrelevant what you and I and others think, you see. The Supreme court decides...
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Cittasanto »

DN31
(i) by being courteous to her, (ii) by not despising her, (iii) by being faithful to her, (iv) by handing over authority to her, (v) by providing her with adornments.
but there are also duties to employees
(i) by assigning them work according to their ability, (ii) by supplying them with food and with wages, (iii) by tending them in sickness, (iv) by sharing with them any delicacies, (v) by granting them leave at times.
he failed in both counts here. he sexually harrassed the employee, and betrayed his wife's trust.
Annapurna wrote:Here is what the Buddha said: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e.html#ch4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
II. The Husband

The Buddha, in reply to a householder as to how a husband should minister to his wife declared that the husband should always honor and respect his wife, by being faithful to her, by giving her the requisite authority to manage domestic affairs and by giving her befitting ornaments. This advice, given over twenty five centuries ago, still stands good for today.

Knowing the psychology of the man who tends to consider himself superior, the Buddha made a remarkable change and uplifted the status of a woman by a simple suggestion that a husband should honor and respect his wife. A husband should be faithful to his wife, which means that a husband should fulfill and maintain his marital obligations to his wife thus sustaining the confidence in the marital relationship in every sense of the word. The husband, being a bread-winner, would invariably stay away from home, hence he should entrust the domestic or household duties to the wife who should be considered as the keeper and the distributor of the property and the home economic-administrator. The provision of befitting ornaments to the wife should be symbolic of the husband's love, care and attention showered on the wife. This symbolic practice has been carried out from time immemorial in Buddhist communities. Unfortunately it is in danger of dying out because of the influence of modern civilization.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Anna,

We're so far away in what concerns this subject, that it's best not even discuss it.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Annapurna »

He was definitely failing them, Cittasanto, yes!

The admirable thing about him is, though, that he realized this situation would only get worse and so it had to stop.

He had 2 options:

1. Give up being a dentist, close his practice, lay ALL staff off and cause them problems and throw his own family into poverty.

2. Lay off the assistant.

He chose the option that caused harm to as few people as possible.

It wasn't perfect, it's definitely harmful to the assistant, but at least she has a husband, as well as unemployment money and will be provided for until she finds as new job.

As I read in another article, the dentist sat down holding hands with his wife and spoke about everything with her and he also spoke with his priest. I understand he is a practicing Christian and by wanting a woman in his thoughts he is breaking the commandments, -is as good as adultery. Also, of course, if his wife feels the marriage is in jeopardy, he would take her fear seriously.

What he did was the result of these all these thoughts and conversations...

Of course I don't the details....so..who knows...
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Cittasanto »

From what I know it sounds like rubbish spewing forth from his mouth to try and cover himself.
he did have another option, act professionally, otherwise the Burkha option is all that is left.

one thing this case has shown other employers is a way to bully people legally for sexual stimulous.
I can not remember who said it, but yes if someone turns down advances they can be fired for being too attractive.

this is not the only instance I know of, there was another case where someone was fired for being too attractive, and they had placed on them all sorts of restrictions for their dress which no other had to follow.

I am actually disgusted to be the same sex as these people.
Annapurna wrote:He was definitely failing them, Cittasanto, yes!

The admirable thing about him is, though, that he realized this situation would only get worse and so it had to stop.

He had 2 options:

1. Give up being a dentist, close his practice, lay ALL staff off and cause them problems and throw his own family into poverty.

2. Lay off the assistant.

He chose the option that caused harm to as few people as possible.

It wasn't perfect, it's definitely harmful to the assistant, but at least she has a husband, as well as unemployment money and will be provided for until she finds as new job.

As I read in another article, the dentist sat down holding hands with his wife and spoke about everything with her and he also spoke with his priest. I understand he is a practicing Christian and by wanting a woman in his thoughts he is breaking the commandments, -is as good as adultery. Also, of course, if his wife feels the marriage is in jeopardy, he would take her fear seriously.

What he did was the result of these all these thoughts and conversations...

Of course I don't the details....so..who knows...
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:The wife needs to grow up.
Agree.
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by corrine »

I was, personally, appalled at this decision and am hoping that it will be appealed to the U. S. Supreme Court where a more rational decision may be made.

The very idea that someone's employment could be endangered because the employer was attracted to them, is absurd. This is the employer's problem and if he/she is too immature to keep their thoughts and their deeds separate, then the employer needs serious help. Self control is something that each of us must master in order to become a mature, productive, adult human being. The very idea that one cannot control their lust is just ridiculous and that the employee should pay for this is worse.

I think the employer should not only be unable to fire for this cause but should be punished. To take away someone's ability to earn a living is beyond tragic. This employee did nothing wrong and had worked for many years. Does this mean that this person cannot be around anyone to whom he is attracted without acting on that attraction?

If this were my spouse, I would be very worried because this behavior means my spouse is immature and unfeeling and cannot control himself. What a horrible person to be married to.

All of us have cravings. We do not need to act on these cravings. We need to see them as the negative emotions that they are, put them in their place and go about our business. This failing is entirely the employers. Based on this logic, all attractive people should probably be maimed to avoid their being a temptation to others.

I cannot understand this decision except that it took place in the midwest where all sorts of idiotic, backward ideas are still tolerated. Thankfully, I do not live there.

corrine :shrug:
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Yana »

plwk wrote:Image

The Iowa Supreme Court ruled yesterday that employers in the state can legally fire workers they find too attractive.
In a unanimous decision, the court held that a dentist did not violate the state’s civil rights act when he terminated a female dental assistant whom his wife considered a threat to their marriage.
More here
Isn't being attractive relative.Like Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.Everybody has a problem if you show up to work with a lot of cleavege visible.But what if you can pull off sexy with conservative clothes on.Are we "also" gong to get fired.darn.i guess not everyone's a scorpio lady ahaha :tongue:
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Annapurna »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Anna,

We're so far away in what concerns this subject, that it's best not even discuss it.
If that's what you prefer I can respect this, no problem, maybe it is wise then to talk some other time where we find ourselves on terrain that is more agreeable for the 2 of us. :anjali:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your kindness.

(We'd be in trouble if you and I were married and could not talk something over, it just occured to me, but then, we probably wouldn't feel attracted to each other before it even gets this far.... :jumping: :tongue:

But who knows. I am stubborn too. My word is law!!! :rofl:

Only kidding.... :hug:

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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Annapurna »

Cittasanto wrote:From what I know it sounds like rubbish spewing forth from his mouth to try and cover himself.
But you're assuming, right...?
he did have another option, act professionally, otherwise the Burkha option is all that is left.
What would you suggest as "acting professionally", then?
one thing this case has shown other employers is a way to bully people legally for sexual stimulous.
I can not remember who said it, but yes if someone turns down advances they can be fired for being too attractive.
That's certainly in the picture, and I have heard of cases where I would have arrived at the same opinion. But here the 2 said:
Melissa Nelson, who worked for dentist James Knight for more than 10 years and had never flirted with him, according to the testimony of both parties
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Re: Employers can fire workers they find too sexy

Post by Cittasanto »

Annapurna wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:From what I know it sounds like rubbish spewing forth from his mouth to try and cover himself.
But you're assuming, right...?
underlined.
he did have another option, act professionally, otherwise the Burkha option is all that is left.
What would you suggest as "acting professionally", then?
Sending texts about Orgasm would be acting unprofessionally. as would acting toward someone in a way they are not receptive toward (as your below quote demonstrates)

To frame this in a different light. Just because I do not like someone doesn't mean that I can not work and fulfil my professional obligation with them as part of the team. And if I am in a position of authority over them unless they are acting in a dangerous manner which can be demonstrated as being done I have no right to treat them differently in the course of work than another. That would by definition be bullying & harassing. On the personal side I do not have any responsibility or duty to engage with them on a personal level, and if they can not handle that it is not my issue, and vice versa.

in this case (as shown by the lack of response with the lewd text message/s) she was able and willing to keep things on the professional level, he and subsequently his spouse were not.
one thing this case has shown other employers is a way to bully people legally for sexual stimulous.
I can not remember who said it, but yes if someone turns down advances they can be fired for being too attractive.
That's certainly in the picture, and I have heard of cases where I would have arrived at the same opinion. But here the 2 said:
Melissa Nelson, who worked for dentist James Knight for more than 10 years and had never flirted with him, according to the testimony of both parties
Yes she never flirted with him.

but I would also say this has opened the door to bullying in general, not just sexual.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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