best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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equilibrium
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by equilibrium »

Jaidyn wrote:On the other hand, the memory of the suttas does not guarantee you get the right vision.
This is interesting.
The "action by knowing and action by acting" i do not understand, and i do not grasp what difference you mean, and how it relates to memorizing (you may have an interesting conclusion but I don´t see it clearly yet)
Under SN36.6: The Arrow: illustrates the point that a run-of-the-mill person against a noble one where the noble one has only one pain being physical and a run-of-the-mill person has two pains being both mental and physical. This is a good example to use because it shows the ability to let go, now this cannot be achieved by reading alone nor even by memory, it takes something else isn't it.
If we were to use Mr rain man again say in a discussion against a noble person, Mr rain man can recall the entire sutta with ease and probably better than the noble person.....there is a limitation here and this is where it stops for Mr rain man.
The real test is when they are both hit by the arrow and can they do it?.....to achieve one pain. The noble one can do it without even trying but Mr rain man tries his hardest, in fact acting as he can do it, recalling the sutta text in his mind.....yet he is still a run-of-the-mill person.....with two pains......and why is that?
Hence the meaning of action by knowing (noble one) and action by acting (Mr rain man)......two very different things.

If the teaching is true that we have to let go.....then why are we trying to accumulate by memory of the suttas?.....is this not the opposite of what is required?.....can we imagine the amount of suttas that needs to be remembered?.....is this really necessary?....maybe Mr rain man can do it by memory but doubt any of us here can achieve anywhere close.....can we imagine the amount of words, the stress involved?
Do we think someone who is noble actually remembers all the suttas?

Anyway, Merry Christmas!
alan...
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

equilibrium wrote:Why would one want to "memorize"?.....even if one could memorize all the suttas, surely by memorizing does not set one free?
Is "understanding" and "comprehension" not the main purpose?.....if done, one can let go rather than to "hold on".....by clinging.
because that's how people have been doing it since as far back as our knowable history of buddhism goes for one. for another when you're randomly stuck with an emotion or a thought on the dhamma or simply a question, or whatever it is extremely helpful to have a little mental library with a direct quote from the suttas at hand. i can't imagine why memorizing them would not be a good idea. from your enso i'm guessing you're a zen guy? zen is fantastic and from a zen perspective perhaps you're exactly correct. however from a theravada perspective it is a good idea. at least as far as i know, the majority of theravada temples practice memorization and lots of lay practitioners in theravada countries memorize them as well. not to mention all the people on this thread talking about it.

but like i said, i don't know about zen. from what i gather zen is very unique and may not agree with memorization. but i'm not sure, do zen monks memorize sutras? i feel like i saw monks and nuns chanting the heart sutra from memory at the zendo when i used to go... but i could be wrong...

i don't know of any school of buddhism that would be opposed to memorization and i feel fairly confident all schools would recommend it. other than some sects of zen because zen places a huge amount of emphasis on non attachment to even the dharma "if you see the buddha on the road, kill him!".

oh and the sixth patriarch ripping up sutras and all that showing his enlightenment and it's independence from scripture.
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Cittasanto
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by Cittasanto »

This is essentially a link to the PDF of everything I have memorised, and what I used http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/bm2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you start memorising the pali satipatthana I have a good sound file to help.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
alan...
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:This is essentially a link to the PDF of everything I have memorised, and what I used http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/bm2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you start memorising the pali satipatthana I have a good sound file to help.
Cool! So you learned the somewhat standard ones used by actual bhikkhus? Awesome. I might do the same aftrr i read them
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:This is essentially a link to the PDF of everything I have memorised, and what I used http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/bm2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you start memorising the pali satipatthana I have a good sound file to help.
Cool! So you learned the somewhat standard ones used by actual bhikkhus? Awesome. I might do the same aftrr i read them
standard? Maybe in the west but I did learn them while in the monastery as an anagarika.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
alan...
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:This is essentially a link to the PDF of everything I have memorised, and what I used http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/bm2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you start memorising the pali satipatthana I have a good sound file to help.
Cool! So you learned the somewhat standard ones used by actual bhikkhus? Awesome. I might do the same aftrr i read them
standard? Maybe in the west but I did learn them while in the monastery as an anagarika.
oh i meant like the ones that would be chanted in a temple by bhikkhus as opposed to random suttas picked from the canon based on personal preference. so "standard" in that they would be the standard for chanting in a temple and not selected totally personally by an individual.
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Jaidyn
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by Jaidyn »

equilibrium wrote:
Jaidyn wrote:On the other hand, the memory of the suttas does not guarantee you get the right vision.
This is interesting.
I see tree things in Buddhism (this is my own interpretation): The own intentions resulting in actions, the experience of phenomenon and the teaching as given in form of concepts (we can also say the teaching comes by inspiration from associating with noble ones, but i leave that out for this discussion). While the teachings in themselves can be said to be correct, they need to be set in the context of experiences and intentions. It is the dynamics between these three things that will lead to progress or not. "Vision" here is understood as the resulting dynamics between the three factors. "Wrong vision" here is the result of any of the tree factors being insufficient. If teaching is insufficient you will not observe the phenomenon correctly (by way of impermanence), if experiencing (focusing awareness) is lacking it does not matter if you know the conceptual teaching about impermanence because you will not "see for yourself". If right intention - avoiding the unwholesome and encourage the wholesome - is lacking, you will be said to not be free enough from desires to actually experience what the teaching is pointing at.

Therefore i say "the memory of the suttas does not guarantee you get the right vision"

Now it becomes a question about what emphasis we put on the teaching and on the other two factors. To answer the question I would want to regard the nature of the individual and also assume the individuals needs will vary across time. But another question: can the memorizing of the teaching be said to have any good general effect common to all individuals putting effort into memorizing?
equilibrium wrote:
The "action by knowing and action by acting" i do not understand, and i do not grasp what difference you mean, and how it relates to memorizing (you may have an interesting conclusion but I don´t see it clearly yet)
Under SN36.6: The Arrow: illustrates the point that a run-of-the-mill person against a noble one where the noble one has only one pain being physical and a run-of-the-mill person has two pains being both mental and physical. This is a good example to use because it shows the ability to let go, now this cannot be achieved by reading alone nor even by memory, it takes something else isn't it.
If we were to use Mr rain man again say in a discussion against a noble person, Mr rain man can recall the entire sutta with ease and probably better than the noble person.....there is a limitation here and this is where it stops for Mr rain man.
The real test is when they are both hit by the arrow and can they do it?.....to achieve one pain. The noble one can do it without even trying but Mr rain man tries his hardest, in fact acting as she or he can do it, recalling the sutta text in his mind.....yet she or he is still a run-of-the-mill person.....with two pains......and why is that?
Hence the meaning of action by knowing (noble one) and action by acting (Mr rain man)......two very different things.
An interesting observation. Memorizing, in my reflection, may give a sort of confidence overshadowing the real ability of the person to avoid "the second arrow". I would like to recall what I described as the dynamics between tree things - experience, intention and teaching. If we are unable to react as the noble one we have to question not only the emphasis on the teaching but also intention and our way of experiencing.

But... to make my view of an important distinction clear: the teachings is not used as a tool to avoid the second arrow. It is used as a tool to figure out for yourself how to avoid the second arrow. You are correct, to my mind, in that the teaching is dropped at some point (i look at your speculation in the next quote). The noble one has released his grip on the teaching as she or he needs it not anymore to figure out how to learn to avoid the second arrow. The noble one should be beyond the dynamics with the three factors i described. The process of the three factors interacting is just the learning-process involved prior to reaching the final goal.
equilibrium wrote: If the teaching is true that we have to let go.....then why are we trying to accumulate by memory of the suttas?.....is this not the opposite of what is required?.....can we imagine the amount of suttas that needs to be remembered?.....is this really necessary?....maybe Mr rain man can do it by memory but doubt any of us here can achieve anywhere close.....can we imagine the amount of words, the stress involved?
Do we think someone who is noble actually remembers all the suttas?

Anyway, Merry Christmas!
The accumulation need not to be obsessive. It may look obsessive because it requires such a tremendous effort. People may also be obsessed with just the book just reading, while others are not. The same applies to memorizing.

The accumulation may be because of contra productive attachment, but may also be because of good reasons. We have to regard the characteristics of the individual - the details of the three factors interacting.
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:
equilibrium wrote:We're talking about two different things here.
I am talking about the teachings found in the suttas (you know what is being memorised here), what are you talking about?
equilibrium wrote:When one understands, one does not need to take it everywhere and reflect on its meaning.....as one knows in the mind.
and when one doesn't understand? and how does one know they understand?
Peeling the layers of meaning away can be a long task.
I second this post. Until you're fully enlightened you need to reflect on the teachings.
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by equilibrium »

alan... wrote:Until you're fully enlightened you need to reflect on the teachings.
This caught my eyes so will be brief, are you aware if there is a difference between someone who is enlightened and fully enlightened?.....and is fully enlightened possible when there is a teaching?
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

equilibrium wrote:
alan... wrote:Until you're fully enlightened you need to reflect on the teachings.
This caught my eyes so will be brief, are you aware if there is a difference between someone who is enlightened and fully enlightened?.....and is fully enlightened possible when there is a teaching?
Stream entry, once returner, non returner, arahant (essentially fully enlightened but debated). If you cant become fully enlightened even more reason to keep the suttas in mind.
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equilibrium
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by equilibrium »

alan... wrote:because that's how people have been doing it since as far back as our knowable history of buddhism.....
.....the majority of theravada temples practice memorization and lots of lay practitioners in theravada countries memorize them as well. not to mention all the people on this thread talking about it.
emmmm.....so if most people do it this way, does that mean this is the way?.....the majority rules the way.....was it not the buddha made his own way rather than following?.....another way to look at it is "A blind man cannot lead a blind man out of the forest".
i feel like i saw monks and nuns chanting the heart sutra from memory at the zendo when i used to go.....
well.....the heart sutra isn't very long, remember, these monks and nuns read these everyday so it doesn't take long before they could remember them and it is possible that when you seen them, they were ready and reading it by memory.....but does that mean one must read it by memory?.....now what is more important here is not about memory but actually reading it.
.....if you see the buddha on the road, kill him!
Wonder if you understand what this means because it cannot happen.....do you know why?
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equilibrium
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by equilibrium »

alan... wrote:
equilibrium wrote:
alan... wrote:Until you're fully enlightened you need to reflect on the teachings.
This caught my eyes so will be brief, are you aware if there is a difference between someone who is enlightened and fully enlightened?.....and is fully enlightened possible when there is a teaching?
Stream entry, once returner, non returner, arahant (essentially fully enlightened but debated). If you cant become fully enlightened even more reason to keep the suttas in mind.
Interesting.....but there is something wrong with the logic here.....can you see it?.....
So what do you really think in the bit in red? (debated).....why?
maybe we should get back to this later as there is something very interesting.
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

equilibrium wrote:
alan... wrote:because that's how people have been doing it since as far back as our knowable history of buddhism.....
.....the majority of theravada temples practice memorization and lots of lay practitioners in theravada countries memorize them as well. not to mention all the people on this thread talking about it.
emmmm.....so if most people do it this way, does that mean this is the way?.....the majority rules the way.....was it not the buddha made his own way rather than following?.....another way to look at it is "A blind man cannot lead a blind man out of the forest".
i feel like i saw monks and nuns chanting the heart sutra from memory at the zendo when i used to go.....
well.....the heart sutra isn't very long, remember, these monks and nuns read these everyday so it doesn't take long before they could remember them and it is possible that when you seen them, they were ready and reading it by memory.....but does that mean one must read it by memory?.....now what is more important here is not about memory but actually reading it.
.....if you see the buddha on the road, kill him!
Wonder if you understand what this means because it cannot happen.....do you know why?
You're right memorizing suttas is pointless. Good job proving this to me. Now prove it to the tens of thousands of monks doing it and, the hundreds of thousands of lay people doing it. Good luck!
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:You're right memorizing suttas is pointless. Good job proving this to me. Now prove it to the tens of thousands of monks doing it and, the hundreds of thousands of lay people doing it. Good luck!
Hi Alan
hence what I said to them earlier
Cittasanto wrote:equilibrium
please read the OP and title. you are coming at this with assumptions which are both unfair and missing things. Jumping to the end rather than where someone is helps no-one.
mystical claptrap does not help anything
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
alan...
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Re: best suttas to memorize? techniques?

Post by alan... »

Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote:You're right memorizing suttas is pointless. Good job proving this to me. Now prove it to the tens of thousands of monks doing it and, the hundreds of thousands of lay people doing it. Good luck!
Hi Alan
hence what I said to them earlier
Cittasanto wrote:equilibrium
please read the OP and title. you are coming at this with assumptions which are both unfair and missing things. Jumping to the end rather than where someone is helps no-one.
mystical claptrap does not help anything
:goodpost:
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