Do you believe in rebirth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

Do you believe in rebirth?

Yes
21
72%
No
2
7%
Don't know/not sure
2
7%
Don't care/not important
4
14%
 
Total votes: 29

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
uniformsquare wrote:It seems I am the only one that has chosen, Don't know/not sure. I am told by others this is true but I am yet to verify this for myself, I wonder if it is beneficial to hold this view. I'm not really a man of faith, but I do have a number of working assumptions.
That's fair enough. I "don't know" too, but I do believe.

Relevant topic from the Study Group...

MN Session 2 - MN 60. Apannaka Sutta
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=456" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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appicchato
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by appicchato »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
uniformsquare wrote:I "don't know" too, but I do believe.
Ditto... :pig:
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acinteyyo
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by acinteyyo »

When it comes to rebirth, it reminds me that very often that word "rebirth" appears to be taken for granted and everyone knows what exactly is meant.

imho there is birth and birth again and birth again and again and again and so on... but there is definitely no rebirth when this word means "reincarnation (mainly of something)". and when I say "birth" like in the sentence before, I don't just mean physical or bodily birth but also every appearance of any sankhārā depending on their cause or causes. there is birth every moment and there needn't to be physical death to be born again.

So, how I have to understand the question "Do you believe in rebirth?" or rather how have I to understand "rebirth" in this case?
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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pink_trike
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by pink_trike »

I _don't know_ and hold no unknowing beliefs. What could I possibly base a belief in literal rebirth on?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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appicchato
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by appicchato »

pink_trike wrote:I _don't know_ and hold no unknowing beliefs. What could I possibly base a belief in literal rebirth on?
Isn't 'unknowing beliefs' an oxymoron?...and, like most everything else, 'belief' comes in varying shapes and sizes...I base my 'belief' (with a size and shape I'd have difficulty defining, probably because I don't try to) on the matter because the Buddha (so we're told) said this is the way it is: the endless cycle of birth, old age, sickness, and death...
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Ben
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ben »

Dear Bhante,
appicchato wrote:
pink_trike wrote:I _don't know_ and hold no unknowing beliefs. What could I possibly base a belief in literal rebirth on?
Isn't 'unknowing beliefs' an oxymoron?...and, like most everything else, 'belief' comes in varying shapes and sizes...I base my 'belief' (with a size and shape I'd have difficulty defining, probably because I don't try to) on the matter because the Buddha (so we're told) said this is the way it is: the endless cycle of birth, old age, sickness, and death...
I think you make a very good point. At some point on our path we come to the conclusion that the Buddha was a 'truth teller' based on our own understanding of the Dhamma and the verification of wisdom that is derived from direct meditative (practice-oriented) insight. So we develop confidence that the Buddha was, in your words, telling us this is the way it is. We also know that faith/confidence (saddha) is one of the seven bojjhangas (factors of enlightenment). But we also know that investigation is another factor of enlightenment. So our faith, our belief, shouldn't be blind but should be complemented by the development of wisdom, which, is an investigative process.

And as Retro alluded, until we have developed sufficient confidence in the Buddha and the Dhamma, then we should take apply the teaching in the Apannaka Sutta (MN 60: The incontrovertible teaching).
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ben wrote:Dear Bhante,
appicchato wrote:
pink_trike wrote:I _don't know_ and hold no unknowing beliefs. What could I possibly base a belief in literal rebirth on?
Isn't 'unknowing beliefs' an oxymoron?...and, like most everything else, 'belief' comes in varying shapes and sizes...I base my 'belief' (with a size and shape I'd have difficulty defining, probably because I don't try to) on the matter because the Buddha (so we're told) said this is the way it is: the endless cycle of birth, old age, sickness, and death...
I think you make a very good point. At some point on our path we come to the conclusion that the Buddha was a 'truth teller' based on our own understanding of the Dhamma and the verification of wisdom that is derived from direct meditative (practice-oriented) insight. So we develop confidence that the Buddha was, in your words, telling us this is the way it is. We also know that faith/confidence (saddha) is one of the seven bojjhangas (factors of enlightenment). But we also know that investigation is another factor of enlightenment. So our faith, our belief, shouldn't be blind but should be complemented by the development of wisdom, which, is an investigative process.

And as Retro alluded, until we have developed sufficient confidence in the Buddha and the Dhamma, then we should take apply the teaching in the Apannaka Sutta (MN 60: The incontrovertible teaching).
Metta

Ben
Wont there be a difference in interpretation of what that truth meant?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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kc2dpt
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by kc2dpt »

acinteyyo wrote:When it comes to rebirth, it reminds me that very often that word "rebirth" appears to be taken for granted and everyone knows what exactly is meant.
It is taken for granted that what is meant is what the Buddha taught.

"I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by acinteyyo »

Peter wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:When it comes to rebirth, it reminds me that very often that word "rebirth" appears to be taken for granted and everyone knows what exactly is meant.
It is taken for granted that what is meant is what the Buddha taught.

"I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."
You're right. I may be wrong but I find that mostly people don't mean what the buddha taught when talking about rebirth. They mean what they suppose that rebirth might be and mostly it doesn't match with what the buddha taught. I know that my opinion assumes/requires (don't know exactly which word should be used here) that I know correctly what the buddha taught about rebirth and my understanding matches completely with the teaching. And I'm aware of that, thus my opinion could be the only reason why I find that mostly people don't mean what the buddha taugth. So I might be wrong or right depending on my understanding. That's why I'm asking what others mean when they talk about rebirth to clarify and to compare with what I think what's the meaning of rebirth according to the buddhas teaching. Only then an adequate communication is possible.
best wishes
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by kc2dpt »

uniformsquare wrote:It seems I am the only one that has chosen, Don't know/not sure. I am told by others this is true but I am yet to verify this for myself.
If you had verified it for yourself, then it would not be belief. The question was not "Do you know for a fact that rebirth is true?"
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Peter wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:When it comes to rebirth, it reminds me that very often that word "rebirth" appears to be taken for granted and everyone knows what exactly is meant.
It is taken for granted that what is meant is what the Buddha taught.

"I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."

Past abodes, and world means the six sense bases. Basically how we perceive the world is the world in the buddhas teachings, different from a worldy understanding of the world as eart or universe
that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world - this is called the world in the noble ones discipline"

SN - 1190 - book of the six sense media
and
Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world'1 it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply?

"Insofar as it disintegrates,2 monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...

"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate...

"The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate...

"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate...

"The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"

and


It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Contacts Sixfold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named "Contacts Six Fold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue ... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life."


Khana Sutta - SN
World, other realms, cosmos, etc come from the pali word loka. In the Buddhas teachings loka means the six sense bases, how we percieve the world. Not the physical world itself so for example when one is depressed, the loka is the hell realm


metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Rhino »

acinteyyo wrote:...and when I say "birth" like in the sentence before, I don't just mean physical or bodily birth but also every appearance of any sankhārā depending on their cause or causes. there is birth every moment and there needn't to be physical death to be born again.
To me birth in paticcasamuppada is not equal to rebirth. I am (as you know) influenced by Nanavira Thera and that was one of his fundamental teachings. He saw birth in paticcasamuppada in relation to the 'self' and not the body. And Ajahn Chah's statements about birth are leading in the same direction. And when you believe that (as Nanavira stated): "'Dependent Origination' has—in spite of a venerable tradition—nothing whatsoever to do with 'Kamma and Re-birth'", there will be no more confusion of birth and re-birth. Maybe some original quotations from Nanavira may clear it better:
9. It will be convenient to start at the end of the paticcasamuppāda formulation and to discuss jāti and jarāmarana first. To begin with, jāti is 'birth' and not 're-birth'. 'Re-birth' is punabbhavābhinibbatti, as in Majjhima v,3 <M.i,294> where it is said that future 'birth into renewed existence' comes of avijjā and tanhā; and it is clear that, here, two successive existences are involved. It is, no doubt, possible for a Buddha to see the re-birth that is at each moment awaiting a living individual who still has tanhā—the re-birth, that is to say, that is now awaiting the individual who now has tanhā. If this is so, then for a Buddha the dependence of re-birth upon tanhā is a matter of direct seeing, not involving time. But this is by no means always possible (if, indeed, at all) for an ariyasāvaka, who, though he sees paticcasamuppāda for himself, and with certainty (it is aparapaccayā ñānam), may still need to accept re-birth on the Buddha's authority.[c] In other words, an ariyasāvaka sees birth with direct vision (since jāti is part of the paticcasamuppāda formulation), but does not necessarily see re-birth with direct vision. It is obvious, however, that jāti does not refer straightforwardly to the ariyasāvaka's own physical birth into his present existence; for that at best could only be a memory, and it is probably not remembered at all. How, then, is jāti to be understood?

10.Upādānapaccayā bhavo; bhavapaccayā jāti; jātipaccayā jarāmaranam... With holding as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing-&-death...
The fundamental upādāna or 'holding' is attavāda (see Majjhima ii,1 <M.i,67>), which is holding a belief in 'self'. The puthujjana takes what appears to be his 'self' at its face value; and so long as this goes on he continues to be a 'self', at least in his own eyes (and in those of others like him). This is bhava or 'being'. The puthujjana knows that people are born and die; and since he thinks 'my self exists' so he also thinks 'my self was born' and 'my self will die'. The puthujjana sees a 'self' to whom the words birth and death apply.[d] In contrast to the puthujjana, the arahat has altogether got rid of asmimāna (not to speak of attavāda—see MAMA), and does not even think 'I am'. This is bhavanirodha, cessation of being. And since he does not think 'I am' he also does not think 'I was born' or 'I shall die'. In other words, he sees no 'self' or even 'I' for the words birth and death to apply to. This is jātinirodha and jarāmarananirodha. (See, in Kosala Samy. i,3 <S.i,71>, how the words birth and death are avoided when the arahat is spoken of.
Atthi nu kho bhante jātassa aññatra jarāmaranā ti. N'atthi kho mahārāja jātassa aññatra jarāmaranā. Ye pi te mahārāja khattiyamahāsālā... brāhmanamahāsālā... gahapatimahāsālā..., tesam pi jātānam n'atthi aññatra jarāmaranā. Ye pi te mahārāja bhikkhu arahanto khīnāsavā..., tesam pāyam kāyo bhedanadhammo nikkhepanadhammo ti.)

-- For one who is born, lord, is there anything other than ageing-&-death?—For one who is born, great king, there is nothing other than ageing-&-death. Those, great king, who are wealthy warriors... wealthy divines... wealthy householders...,—for them, too, being born, there is nothing other than ageing-&-death. Those monks, great king, who are worthy ones, destroyers of the cankers...,—for them, too, it is the nature of this body to break up, to be laid down.
The puthujjana, taking his apparent 'self' at face value, does not see that he is a victim of upādāna; he does not see that 'being a self' depends upon 'holding a belief in self' (upādānapaccayā bhavo); and he does not see that birth and death depend upon his 'being a self' (bhavapaccayā jāti, and so on). The ariyasāvaka, on the other hand, does see these things, and he sees also their cessation (even though he may not yet have fully realized it); and his seeing of these things is direct. Quite clearly, the idea of re-birth is totally irrelevant here.
Source: Notes on Dhamma :: A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA

and
The Buddha does not explain how rebirth takes place; he states simply that, unless craving has ceased, rebirth does take place. It may be that a more detailed description of the phenomenon of rebirth than is found in the Suttas could be made, but (a) it would be irrelevant and unnecessary (because it is quite enough just to accept rebirth), and (b) it would not be in terms of 'cause and effect' (i.e. it would be strictly a description and not an explanation).
source: Letter 9


To my personal view I agree with "uniformsquare"
uniformsquare wrote:I "don't know" too, but I do believe.
With best wishes

Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

To me birth in paticcasamuppada is not equal to rebirth. I am (as you know) influenced by Nanavira Thera and that was one of his fundamental teachings. He saw birth in paticcasamuppada in relation to the 'self' and not the body. And Ajahn Chah's statements about birth are leading in the same direction. And when you believe that (as Nanavira stated): "'Dependent Origination' has—in spite of a venerable tradition—nothing whatsoever to do with 'Kamma and Re-birth'", there will be no more confusion of birth and re-birth. Maybe some original quotations from Nanavira may clear it better:
I agree with this, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Viradhammo teach the same thing


In Ajahn Buddhadasa's book on Dependent Origination, he emphasises that his approach has been on the paticcasamuppada as working in the moment rather than in terms of past present and future lives. When you contemplate, when you practise, you realise that that is the only way it could ever be. This is because we are working with the mind itself. Even when we are considering the birth of a human body, we are not commenting on the birth of our own bodies, but recognising mentally that these bodies were born. Then, in reflection we are noting that mental consciousness arises and ceases. So that whole sequence of Dependent Origination arises and ceases in a moment. The arising and the cessation from avijja is momentary, it is not a kind of permanent avijja. It would be a mistaken view to assume that everything began with avijja and sometime in the future it would all cease.
http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/index.p ... /eArticles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

by Luang por Sumedhi

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Post by tiltbillings »

As a moderator: Please keep in mind there is already a "Great Rebirth Debate" thread that is open.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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