Vipassana during Jhana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Bakmoon

I tried giving my explanation 3 posts up. As I said, opinions will differ, and much will depend also on how one understands vipassati. Is it mere "clearly seeing" or is it the ruminative analysis that leads to the mere "clearly seeing"? I get the sense from your post -
Note that it says "Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided" and this I think is key. It says that these factors arose known to him. This knowing must have occurred contemporaneously with the arising, remaining, and subsiding, ...
that you're equating the past participle viditā with the vipassanā.

Since I take vipassanā to be the outcome of reflection and analysis, I won't equate it with the vindati verb (present tense of viditā), as vindati can easily encompass those kinds of bare and non-verbal awareness. If I were to accept that viditā were an analytical activity, I cannot reconcile it with the absence of vitakka-vicāra in the series of 9 attainments except for the 1st jhana.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sylvester,

This is an interesting discussion. Forgetting about the "vipassana" aspect, can we determine from the sutta whether the "knowing" of the factors arising and ceasing happening during jhana or afterwards?

:anjali:
Mike
Bakmoon
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Bakmoon »

I think the knowing of the factors had to occur as they occurred just from the grammar. It says:
Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.
This is grammatically distinctive in this sutta, as in the case of the terms samanupassati and pajanati, the terms were being used as the main verb, but the word we are interested in here is a participle used as an adverb, which implies contemporaneity, because the participle is describing how the action occurred. When it says "Known to him they arose" it means that they arose in a way which was known to him.

That's my analysis, although I freely admit that it is possible that Pali participles work differently than in other languages.

[Added later] My analysis of this line is mistaken. On the next page, Sylvester points out how the participle in this passage is being used as an adjective, rather than an adverb.
Last edited by Bakmoon on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
Bakmoon
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Bakmoon »

Sylvester wrote:Hi Bakmoon

I tried giving my explanation 3 posts up. As I said, opinions will differ, and much will depend also on how one understands vipassati. Is it mere "clearly seeing" or is it the ruminative analysis that leads to the mere "clearly seeing"? I get the sense from your post -
Note that it says "Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided" and this I think is key. It says that these factors arose known to him. This knowing must have occurred contemporaneously with the arising, remaining, and subsiding, ...
that you're equating the past participle viditā with the vipassanā.

Since I take vipassanā to be the outcome of reflection and analysis, I won't equate it with the vindati verb (present tense of viditā), as vindati can easily encompass those kinds of bare and non-verbal awareness. If I were to accept that viditā were an analytical activity, I cannot reconcile it with the absence of vitakka-vicāra in the series of 9 attainments except for the 1st jhana.

:anjali:
I think that vipassati is a rather broad term that can encompass both of those meanings. As you said, in the sutta pitika it is used in a broader sense than in abhidhamma.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
danieLion
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by danieLion »

Vipassana Jhanas by Joseph Goldstein
downloadable
Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Sylvester »

Bakmoon wrote:I think the knowing of the factors had to occur as they occurred just from the grammar. It says:
Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.
This is grammatically distinctive in this sutta, as in the case of the terms samanupassati and pajanati, the terms were being used as the main verb, but the word we are interested in here is a participle used as an adverb, which implies contemporaneity, because the participle is describing how the action occurred. When it says "Known to him they arose" it means that they arose in a way which was known to him.

That's my analysis, although I freely admit that it is possible that Pali participles work differently than in other languages.

Hi Bakmoon

Could you explain why the past participle viditā here appears to you to function adverbially? I think the general rule is for adverbs to be declined to the accusative? (see Geiger p.95) It should be an adjective, qualifying the noun dhammā.

It's not an easy passage, since the "tyāssa dhammā viditā uppajjanti" might be the continuation of preceding the ya-ta correlative clause that goes "Ye ca paṭhame jhāne ...tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti". Bearing in mind that the honti appears to be functioning as an auxiliary verb, might it be possible that uppajjanti etc are also auxiliary in nature? Admittedly, this is unlikely, given Warder's short list of auxiliaries at Cap 24.

I am inclined to agree that the viditā is contemporaneous with the state's arising etc, but again, I am of the view that this has nothing to do with vipassanā. I interpret vipassanā to be the outcome of ruminative contemplation, whereas the absence of any mention of viditā in the 2 post-saññāsamāpattis suggests that vavattheti and vindati are allied to perception, rather than analysis.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote: I am inclined to agree that the viditā is contemporaneous with the state's arising etc, but again, I am of the view that this has nothing to do with vipassanā. I interpret vipassanā to be the outcome of ruminative contemplation, whereas the absence of any mention of viditā in the 2 post-saññāsamāpattis suggests that vavattheti and vindati are allied to perception, rather than analysis.
I'm curious where vipassana is declared to be "ruminative".

:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by danieLion »

From the Joseph Goldstein talk I linked to above.

The 1st Vipassana Jhana: Seclusion from the hindrances for a period of time, and a very immediate direct seeing of the three characteristics (33:38-ish to 45:00-ish).

The 2nd Vipassana Jhana: Discernment of what is the path (continuous mindfulness of whatever arises) with energetic rapture, resulting in a tremendous amount of confidence (38:00-ish to 45:00-ish).

The 3rd Vipassana Jhana: Lucid mindfulness. Energetic rapture fades away and is replaced by comfort and one-pointedness. Dissolution is experienced (45:00-ish to 49:00-ish).

Somewhere between the third vipassana jhana and the fourth, comfort becomes equanimity (while one-pointedness remains) until in...(49:00-ish to 50:45-ish)

...The 4th Vipassana Jhana: Equanimity becomes well developed, and experiences of dissolution become stronger and more subtle, preparing the mind to experience The Unconditioned (50:45-ish to 55:00-ish).
Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Mike

I infer as such - see this post : http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 34#p218743" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. See also the Dhammasaṅgaṇī citation earlier, which employs rather discursive nouns related to one of the bojjhangas, ie dhammavicaya.

One of the 5 possibilities in AN 5.26 also employs rather ruminative verbs, ie anuvitakketi (ponders) anuvicāreti (examines) manasānupekkhati (metally inspects).

That being said, I would be the last to disagree that vipassanā in the sense of satipaṭṭhāna can carry a VERY broad range of the verbal formation, from the complex ones above to the bare awareness types that have been discussed.

:anjali:
daverupa
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by daverupa »

Sylvester wrote:That being said, I would be the last to disagree that vipassanā in the sense of satipaṭṭhāna can carry a VERY broad range of the verbal formation, from the complex ones above to the bare awareness types that have been discussed.
Given that satipatthana was to be among the first things introduced to new ordinands, I think that the broad range of the term might be trying to capture the various ways satipatthana gets done, i.e. satipatthana occurs as the background for daily practice - sati-sampajanna - while anapanasati is a way of doing it which leads to jhana.

It seems to me that ruminative analysis forms the backbone of early practice, at least, up to and including first jhana (since this was discovered by the Bodhisatta at an early age, it makes sense to me that it's character would be markedly different from second jhana, etc.). But as things come to be known, analysis gives way to perception, and the increasing lack of rumination makes vipassanā the most appropriate single term for these aspects of this process, given its breadth.

There's a sutta that describes the practice of satipatthana as being with vitakka-vicara, with vicara, and without vitakka-vicara, which seems to hint in this direction as well.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Sylvester »

:goodpost:
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equilibrium
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by equilibrium »

Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.
This caught my eyes so will be brief.....lets use an analogy:
Lets say you known something to be true but now there is new information revealed to you and as you examine between the two, you will come to the conclusion that what you thought you knew was true was actually nothing but a believe, so you throw it away leaving you with the new information which now becomes the truth.
Bakmoon
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Bakmoon »

Sylvester wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:I think the knowing of the factors had to occur as they occurred just from the grammar. It says:
Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.
This is grammatically distinctive in this sutta, as in the case of the terms samanupassati and pajanati, the terms were being used as the main verb, but the word we are interested in here is a participle used as an adverb, which implies contemporaneity, because the participle is describing how the action occurred. When it says "Known to him they arose" it means that they arose in a way which was known to him.

That's my analysis, although I freely admit that it is possible that Pali participles work differently than in other languages.

Hi Bakmoon

Could you explain why the past participle viditā here appears to you to function adverbially? I think the general rule is for adverbs to be declined to the accusative? (see Geiger p.95) It should be an adjective, qualifying the noun dhammā.

It's not an easy passage, since the "tyāssa dhammā viditā uppajjanti" might be the continuation of preceding the ya-ta correlative clause that goes "Ye ca paṭhame jhāne ...tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti". Bearing in mind that the honti appears to be functioning as an auxiliary verb, might it be possible that uppajjanti etc are also auxiliary in nature? Admittedly, this is unlikely, given Warder's short list of auxiliaries at Cap 24.
Oh, you are right. The participle is acting as an adjective. I really need to review Pali case endings and verbals :embarassed:
Sylvester wrote:I am inclined to agree that the viditā is contemporaneous with the state's arising etc, but again, I am of the view that this has nothing to do with vipassanā. I interpret vipassanā to be the outcome of ruminative contemplation, whereas the absence of any mention of viditā in the 2 post-saññāsamāpattis suggests that vavattheti and vindati are allied to perception, rather than analysis.

:anjali:
It's all a difference of definition, then. I understand vipassati to be seeing objects clearly as having the characteristics they have (seeing their conditions of arising and passing, seeing the three characteristics, etc...), as opposed to seeing it in a way contaminated by conceiving. To me, the sort of vigorous analysis you are talking about would better be classified as dhamma vicaya than vipassati, although I don't think they are mutually exclusive.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Bakmoon.

Yes, it's definitely a difference in definition. It appears that you view vipassanā to be seeing the actual sense data, whereas I view it to be the outcome of the process of inferring inductive knowledge, based on the actual sense data. For want of a better analogy, it could perhaps be said that vipassanā, for you, is seeing the dots, whereas for me it is the pattern disclosed when the dots are joined.
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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sylvester,

This is a very helpful conversation, which perhaps clarifies where some of the different opinions come from...

:anjali:
Mike
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