the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Raitanator wrote:Well, it would be argument fallacy to try to prove that reincarnation exists only because Siddhartha said so. However, we can prove that englightened being, Siddhartha, said that there is reincarnation - migration from one realm to another.

IMHO, reincarnation better be true, otherwise I'm missing a lot and numbing my arse for no reason!
The Buddha spoke about rebirth, not "reincarnation".

Reincarnation is a Tibetan belief.
Raitanator
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Raitanator »

Aloka wrote: The Buddha spoke about rebirth, not "reincarnation".

Reincarnation is a Tibetan belief.
Whatever.
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

Raitanator wrote:Well, it would be argument fallacy to try to prove that reincarnation exists only because Siddhartha said so. However, we can prove that englightened being, Siddhartha, said that there is reincarnation - migration from one realm to another.

IMHO, reincarnation better be true, otherwise I'm missing a lot and numbing my arse for no reason!
It's not only Siddhartha who spoke about rebirth. There were others.

One such recent example is Edgar Cayce.
Not only Edgar Cayce described past lifes of his patients while on hypnosis, he also related present illness to past life bad deeds, Karma. There are lot of people who recovered very serious illness by his prescriptions and advice. It is evidence to prove that his treatments are accurate. If his treatments are accurate and if it make people recover very serious illness even many specialist doctors could not, we can accept his reasoning relating them to past life karma. (If you are interested you can read these Edgar Cayce Life readings through there website edgarcayce.org after paying for membership)

Edgar Cayce fit all this within his known religion and understood it differently, but we can understand it more readily as it is our Buddhist teachings. Perhaps, if Edgar Cayce was a Buddhist, he would had understood these things better.

Of cause, some skeptics does not believe anything what Edgar Cayce says. How could they, when they even don't believe what Buddha said. I also don't believe anything by face value. That's why I read books about Edgar Cayce, then read his real Life Readings and also criticisms. If you do a thorough research, you will understand the truth. Where as most skeptics, they just keep arguing about what they THINK without putting effort to really understand anything. I know I sound very impolite, I'm very sorry that I had to write it like that.

.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
nibbuti
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by nibbuti »

Raitanator wrote:IMHO, reincarnation better be true, otherwise I'm missing a lot and numbing my arse for no reason!
Apparently there is craving a lot and numbing the rear part for no reason.

:|
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
Reincarnation is a Tibetan belief.
No it is not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Reincarnation is a Tibetan belief.
No it is not.
Hi Tilt,

"Reincarnate tulkus" are Tibetan. Is there something similar in Theravada ?
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

As far as I can tell, in English rebirth and reincarnation are synonyms. Neither of them really capture the Buddhist POV, so splitting hairs over a couple of English words seems a bit pointless.

However, I would agree that are Tibetan Buddhist ideas (to do with Tulkas, etc) that don't appear in Theravada.

:anjali:
Mike
nibbuti
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by nibbuti »

mikenz66 wrote:As far as I can tell, in English rebirth and reincarnation are synonyms. Neither of them really capture the Buddhist POV, so splitting hairs over a couple of English words seems a bit pointless.
There are even more synonyms in Pali/Sanskrit than in English, as far as the language is concerned. But as far as the Dhamma is concerned, the Buddha 'split hairs' when someone misconstrued his POV, e.g. in M 38.

:soap:
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Well, that's my point. It is more useful to split hairs over what the suttas actually mean, not over whether some modern English words like rebirth and reincarnation are synonyms or not.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Reincarnation is a Tibetan belief.
No it is not.
Hi Tilt,

"Reincarnate tulkus" are Tibetan. Is there something similar in Theravada ?
It is "reincarnation" only if one assumes that a popular level of speech is the accurate way of talking about things, but Tibetan Buddhism has a great deal more sophistication than that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Tiltbillings wrote:Tibetan Buddhism has a great deal more sophistication than that.
I guess it depends on what one calls "sophistication". I was involved with TB for many years (including doing all the 'Bardo" teachings and related practices).. and to be honest, leaving it behind has been like a much needed breath of fresh air.

"Different strokes for different folks" as the saying goes.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
Tiltbillings wrote:Tibetan Buddhism has a great deal more sophistication than that.
I guess it depends on what one calls "sophistication". I was involved with TB for many years (including doing all the 'Bardo" teachings and related practices)...
You obviously did not hang around with Gelugpas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

Aloka wrote:
"Those who want to believe in survival of a personality after death will likely ignore the weaknesses in Stevenson's methods and praise him for his meticulousness, his devotion to detail, his zeal to get every claim verified or disproved. For my part, I have to agree with Stevenson's own assessment of his work: he's provided evidence, but no compelling evidence for reincarnation.

http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html
Don't forget that Dr. Stevenson him self believed in rebirth/reincarnation as a result of his research.

He had found matching autopsy records in some cases. What do you say about that?

Image
Hypopigmented macule on chest of an Indian youth who, as a child, said he remembered the life of a man, Maha Ram, who was killed with a shotgun fired at close range.

Image
The circles show the principal shotgun wounds on Maha Ram, for comparison. This drawing is from the autopsy report of the deceased.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
Raitanator
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Raitanator »

tiltbillings wrote: You obviously did not hang around with Gelugpas.
Please define "hanging around" before we can move further in this topic.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Rahula wrote:Don't forget that Dr. Stevenson him self believed in rebirth/reincarnation as a result of his research.

He had found matching autopsy records in some cases. What do you say about that?
What I say, is that to me personally it proves nothing at all. I'm sorry but you'll have to come up with something better than Ian stevenson to convince me that there's verfiable evidence of rebirth and I'm very open to any new suggestions.
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