Vipassana during Jhana?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:19 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:22 am


danieLion
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby danieLion » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:06 am

From the Joseph Goldstein talk I linked to above.

The 1st Vipassana Jhana: Seclusion from the hindrances for a period of time, and a very immediate direct seeing of the three characteristics (33:38-ish to 45:00-ish).

The 2nd Vipassana Jhana: Discernment of what is the path (continuous mindfulness of whatever arises) with energetic rapture, resulting in a tremendous amount of confidence (38:00-ish to 45:00-ish).

The 3rd Vipassana Jhana: Lucid mindfulness. Energetic rapture fades away and is replaced by comfort and one-pointedness. Dissolution is experienced (45:00-ish to 49:00-ish).

Somewhere between the third vipassana jhana and the fourth, comfort becomes equanimity (while one-pointedness remains) until in...(49:00-ish to 50:45-ish)

...The 4th Vipassana Jhana: Equanimity becomes well developed, and experiences of dissolution become stronger and more subtle, preparing the mind to experience The Unconditioned (50:45-ish to 55:00-ish).

Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:04 am

Hi Mike

I infer as such - see this post : viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834#p218743. See also the Dhammasaṅgaṇī citation earlier, which employs rather discursive nouns related to one of the bojjhangas, ie dhammavicaya.

One of the 5 possibilities in AN 5.26 also employs rather ruminative verbs, ie anuvitakketi (ponders) anuvicāreti (examines) manasānupekkhati (metally inspects).

That being said, I would be the last to disagree that vipassanā in the sense of satipaṭṭhāna can carry a VERY broad range of the verbal formation, from the complex ones above to the bare awareness types that have been discussed.

:anjali:

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daverupa
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:16 pm


Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:03 pm

:goodpost:

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equilibrium
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby equilibrium » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:09 pm


Bakmoon
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby Bakmoon » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:54 pm

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:24 am

Hi Bakmoon.

Yes, it's definitely a difference in definition. It appears that you view vipassanā to be seeing the actual sense data, whereas I view it to be the outcome of the process of inferring inductive knowledge, based on the actual sense data. For want of a better analogy, it could perhaps be said that vipassanā, for you, is seeing the dots, whereas for me it is the pattern disclosed when the dots are joined.

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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:57 am

Hi Sylvester,

This is a very helpful conversation, which perhaps clarifies where some of the different opinions come from...

:anjali:
Mike

danieLion
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:29 am

Don't suttas like Anguttara Nikaya and record examples of vipassana during jhana?

Sylvester
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:09 pm

That does not seem to be the function of present tense verbs in Pali.

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daverupa
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby daverupa » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:18 pm


santa100
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Re: Vipassana during Jhana?

Postby santa100 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:10 am



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