Patriotism

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Jechbi
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Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

For those who are in or from the U.S., happy Fourth of July. As we light things on fire and watch stuff explode, maybe it's worth asking about this composite mental fabrication we call "patriotism."

In the United States, patriotism is seen almost unanimously as a virtue. Obviously that's not true in every country. In Germany, patriotism sometimes is viewed as something to be ashamed of. But it seems as if patriotism is mixed with all kinds of mental factors that are optional, or that can come in degrees: Pride, love (of country), a sense of belonging, a sense of community, etc.

Does anyone here think patriotism in any form can have a place as we try to apply the Buddhadhamma in our real lives?

To light the fuse: Some of these ABC's of patriotism seem to be more in line with Dhamma than others:
Bobette Bryan wrote:A--Accept that you're not alone. The people of the United States will stand strong and united through any crisis.
:smile:
B--Buy America. Help the wounded economy make a full recovery.
:|
C--Celebrate today, because you're part of one of the greatest nations beneath the sun.
:?
D--Don't panic because of what you hear on the news or read in the paper.
:)
E--Embrace the ones you love and cherish family values.
:heart:
F--Fly the flag proudly. Many people have fought and died for it.
:weep:
G--Greet each dawn with optimism. Remember President Franklin Roosevelt's words: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself..."
:thinking:
H--Honor the constitution and all the liberties it grants you. Honor the liberties it grants other Americans as well. Many have fought to give you these privileges.
:embarassed:
I--Instill a sense of American pride in your children. Teach them the many reasons why they should be glad to be part of this great nation.
:?
J--Join the ranks of those who refuse to be bullied or frightened by foreign aggressors. Do your part to help your nation and your neighbor.
:shrug:
K--Know the Pledge of Allegiance and treasure the meaning of the beautiful words:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
:soap: :roll:
L--Love your neighbor with all of your heart.
:clap:
M--Measure the United States by all of the privileges and opportunities it grants you every day. Unlike the citizens of many other countries, you can do anything you want, become anyone you want to be.
:?
N--Never lose faith that this country will succeed in the face of adversity. God will always guide this nation and keep each star on the American flag shining bright.
:rofl:
O--Offer hope. Everyone could use some.
:thumbsup:
P--Pray that God will continue to richly bless this country, and remember our mot! to is: "In God is our trust."
:roll:
Q--Quit dwelling on the negative. Instead focus on making this nation even better tomorrow than it is today in the spirit of the founding fathers.
:|
R--Remember those who have fought for this country and honor them.
:(
S--Support our troops overseas. Keep their morale up.
:?
T--Think about how lucky you are to be part of this great nation.
:pig:
U--Use your skills and talent to the best of your ability in order to make this country a great place to live.
:heart:
V--Vote. Don't throw away one of your greatest rights.
:thumbsup:
W--Wear a smile instead of a frown.
:twothumbsup:
X--X-ray the heart of the nation, and you'll find that it's beating stronger than ever. The eagle has grown new wings and is taking flight.
:shrug:
Y--Yield to the overwhelming feeling of national pride that's all around.
:shock:
Z--Zealously treasure your freedom, and do all you can to defend it with the heart of a true patriot.
:guns: :roll:

Metta

"ABCs of Patriotism," written and designed by Bobette Bryan, 2001[/quote]
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings
Does anyone here think patriotism in any form can have a place as we try to apply the Buddhadhamma in our real lives?
No since patriotism is sakkāya-diṭṭhi, the first fetter


Also patriotism spawns an "us and them" attitude instead of fostering solidarity. Its very much tied with division instead of unity


Metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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genkaku
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Re: Patriotism

Post by genkaku »

Every year on patriotic holidays, I hang the American flag in front of the house. If you asked me why I should do such a thing, I would admit to you that I don't honestly know.

As close as I can come is this: Not to acknowledge and say thank you for the place in which you find yourself is a big mistake. So perhaps hanging out the flag that represents the country I am responsible for is just a way of reminding myself to pay attention and take responsibility. Whether anyone else hangs out the flag is not something to worry about ... it's like being a Buddhist: There's no inherent virtue in it, but if you choose to do it, then do it with attention and care.

My wobbly take.
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Ben
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ben »

Good for you, Adam!

Happy fourth of July to all our American members!
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

clw_uk wrote:
Does anyone here think patriotism in any form can have a place as we try to apply the Buddhadhamma in our real lives?
No since patriotism is sakkāya-diṭṭhi, the first fetter
Hmmmm, maybe. But it seems like certain elements of patriotism might be ok. Here are a few I like, from the list above:
Bobette Bryan wrote:A--Accept that you're not alone. The people of the United States will stand strong and united through any crisis.
D--Don't panic because of what you hear on the news or read in the paper.
E--Embrace the ones you love and cherish family values.
L--Love your neighbor with all of your heart.
O--Offer hope. Everyone could use some.
U--Use your skills and talent to the best of your ability in order to make this country a great place to live.
V--Vote. Don't throw away one of your greatest rights.
W--Wear a smile instead of a frown.
That gives us the letters a, d, e, l, o, u, v and w. Which can be re-arranged to spell:

U love wad!

So I think that tells us something.

:toast:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Patriotism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:No since patriotism is sakkāya-diṭṭhi, the first fetter
Agreed. Clear and concise. Well said (again).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Individual
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Individual »

Pride is a fetter to enlightenment -- that is, liberation from life and death, and from causality itself -- but it can also be a supporting factor for good deeds.

No one would regard self-esteem as a fetter because it is "pride"; the same goes for self-respect, dignity, honor, etc.. Instead of narrowly judging reality according to technical terms, notice: Pride can be the cause of arrogance or foolhardiness, but it can also be a support for positive things.

And the same is true of patriotism.

Patriotism can be jingoism, a fuel for war, xenophobia, discrimination, and belligerent diplomacy, but it can also be a source of personal self-worth, confidence, and faith, which supports right living.

As another example that comes to mind, because most of Buddhists -- let's be honest here -- are leftists, most of you would likely approve of multiculturalism. But when a person is proud to be black, hispanic, or Asian, is this not simply a form of sub-nationalism? What is it about being proud of one's own country that is necessarily harmful, but pride in one's racial heritage is not?

One can clearly see examples of racial nationalists that are harmful, like the Nazis, KKK, Nation of Islam, etc.. Even radical Muslim terrorists today are motivated by a kind of religious nationalism. But on the other hand, there are also clearly cases where nationalism has, for instance, bolstered a minority student's academic and post-academic success or encouraged charity.

Pride itself is never outright harmful unless it's coupled with something else, like hatred or fear. But pride can also be coupled with good things, like compassion and lovingkindness. Now, if a person is proud of doing good things, and this pride supports their actions, is that not a good thing?

The important thing is what it is a person's pride is based on and what it supports. A person should not be patriotic arbitrarily or ignorantly, but if a person is "proud" that their nation supports peace, freedom, and prosperity worldwide, that's a good thing.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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retrofuturist
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Re: Patriotism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Individual,

Your post reminds us that the aversion associated with self/racial/sexuality/national loathing is no more productive than the greed and delusion associated with patriotism.

:thumbsup:

Again... the middle way awaits.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Individual
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,

Your post reminds us that the aversion associated with self/racial/sexuality/national loathing is no more productive than the greed and delusion associated with patriotism.

:thumbsup:

Again... the middle way awaits.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes.
Last edited by Individual on Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Jechbi
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Jechbi »

So one wonders ... if we display the flag, is it only and exclusively an expression of sakkāya-diṭṭhi, wrong view of self? Or might there be some kusala intention also at play, depending on the person? Like Adam describes, for example? In other words, an expression of gratitude for community, an expression of mindfulness of self and others, and one's place in community? Etc.

Also came across this, fwiw. A Zen perspective on "Enlightened Patriotism," with some references to the Metta Sutta here, including this:
Taigen Dan Leighton wrote:The principles of liberty and justice for all, and the unalienable right of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" articulated by Jefferson and other founding fathers are highly synchronistic with Buddhist perspectives.

...

Our expression of spiritual values will only be helpful when informed by our return to inner work to find dignified calm and wholeness. Then we can present our views without stridency, in the context of actual dialogue and illuminated values. Such enlightened patriotism depends on including all beings, and on fearless openness to truth.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Individual
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Individual »

Jechbi wrote:So one wonders ... if we display the flag, is it only and exclusively an expression of sakkāya-diṭṭhi, wrong view of self? Or might there be some kusala intention also at play, depending on the person? Like Adam describes, for example? In other words, an expression of gratitude for community, an expression of mindfulness of self and others, and one's place in community? Etc.

Also came across this, fwiw. A Zen perspective on "Enlightened Patriotism," with some references to the Metta Sutta here, including this:
Taigen Dan Leighton wrote:The principles of liberty and justice for all, and the unalienable right of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" articulated by Jefferson and other founding fathers are highly synchronistic with Buddhist perspectives.

...

Our expression of spiritual values will only be helpful when informed by our return to inner work to find dignified calm and wholeness. Then we can present our views without stridency, in the context of actual dialogue and illuminated values. Such enlightened patriotism depends on including all beings, and on fearless openness to truth.
I was digging up quotes on patriotism to demonstrate my point above.

One of them I found:
"It should be the work of a genuine and noble patriotism to raise the life of the nation to the level of its privileges; to harmonize its general practice with its abstract principles; to reduce to actual facts the ideals of its institutions; to elevate instruction into knowledge; to deepen knowledge into wisdom; to render knowledge and wisdom complete in righteousness; and to make the love of country perfect in the love of man. "
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Ben
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ben »

Hi all
retrofuturist wrote:
clw_uk wrote:No since patriotism is sakkāya-diṭṭhi, the first fetter
Agreed. Clear and concise. Well said (again).

Metta,
Retro. :)
I agree but I also think what Adam says has currency.
Developing a sense of gratitude for the social environment one finds oneself and the benefits of that society, isn't unwholesome, and gratitude for the sacrifices that past and present generations gave to provide those social benefits, isn't unwholesome.
Be thankful you don't live in some god-awful pit of misery like Zimbabwe, Somalia or North Korea.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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retrofuturist
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Re: Patriotism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

I understand your point.

The way I actively understand it personally as a form of wise-reflection is as follows....

Is there any reason for my interests to be treated as more important than the interests of anyone else? No.

Is there any reason for the interests of folk in one arbitrarily defined region (street, suburb, city, state, country, planet, galaxy...) to be treated as more important than the interests of those in a different region? No.

Being thankful to others is certainly a good thing... very meritorious, very positive and if people need patriotism or other arbitrary classifications in order to achieve that, I would certainly not begrudge it (given its positive outcome), but I think that as Buddhists we should be able to see past this, knowing that it is actually a form of wrong view as pointed out previously.

(After seeing all those Michael Jackson pics/videos, I'm awfully tempted to respond with John Lennon's "Imagine" right about now... :tongue: )

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Ben »

Retro I couldn't agree more!
I think we should investigate patriotism and see it for what it actually is.
To quote Adam: pay attention and take responsibility.
And for a lot of people it is imbued with conceit and personality view. Granted.
For some people, lets say having a sense of social gratitude, can be a vehicle for positive mindstates. And as Buddhists I think we should take advantage of the occassion to foster those positive mindstates, just like we should utilise the occassion of Christmas to develop metta and practice dana.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Individual
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Re: Patriotism

Post by Individual »

Ben wrote:Retro I couldn't agree more!
I think we should investigate patriotism and see it for what it actually is.
To quote Adam: pay attention and take responsibility.
And for a lot of people it is imbued with conceit and personality view.
Sarah Palin violates flag code

Image

Obama stops wearing his flag pin

Obama starts wearing it again

...I also remember for about six months after 9/11, there were flags EVERYWHERE. You couldn't go on the highway without seeing a flag strapped to the back of somebody's car.

You don't see so many of those flags anymore, but what has changed? For many people, July 4th is just an excuse to get drunk and blow stuff up.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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