is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:39 pm

Mr Man wrote:"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"

Cittasanto wrote:and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.



Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

That is your projection. Pointless, but since when was a personal observation relevant?!

But I did ask you some questions!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:50 pm

Billymac29 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"

Cittasanto wrote:and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.



Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.


what does this have to do with the main stream of vipassana??

:focus:


:anjali:

PS I was responding to Cittasanto.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:51 pm

Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for the reminder of that interesting thread about Goenka, IMS, etc
viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299

I guess I would differentiate particular teachers appearing to be isolationist from defining what their practice is. One can find isolationist tendencies in many places...

Ven Analayo comments on these tendencies in this talk at 46:30
The Basic Dynamics of Insight Meditation
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/208/talk/2749/
This is something I don't understand, why not only advanced meditators, but even meditation teachers, think that what they do is the only right thing, and everybody else is wrong [laughs]. It seems to me like kindergarten: "What I got is better than yours, nyah, nyah!".


Furthermore, most teachers I am familiar with would require some consistency of practice if one wanted to do extended retreats. This is explicitly spelled out in the case of Goenka centres, since they have chosen to have a policy to assure consistency around the world. In other environments, where the local teacher is in sole charge, it would most likely be on a case-by-case basis.

:anjali:
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:59 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

That is your projection. Pointless

It is my opinion.
Cittasanto wrote:But I did ask you some questions!
I didn't think the conversation was going anywhere.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:21 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

That is your projection. Pointless

It is my opinion.

point?
but do look up argument
Cittasanto wrote:But I did ask you some questions!
I didn't think the conversation was going anywhere.

only if you do not let it; and that is your choice.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:25 pm

Hi Mike
mikenz66 wrote:
I guess I would differentiate particular teachers appearing to be isolationist from defining what their practice is. One can find isolationist tendencies in many places...
Yes. To me it is a matter of degree and what one is comfortable with but I think some kind of acknowledgement of what is going on is important (hope that makes some sense).
Ven Analayo comments on these tendencies in this talk at 46:30
The Basic Dynamics of Insight Meditation
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/208/talk/2749/This is something I don't understand, why not only advanced meditators, but even meditation teachers, think that what they do is the only right thing, and everybody else is wrong [laughs]. It seems to me like kindergarten: "What I got is better than yours, nyah, nyah!".

I will try and listen when I get a chance,
Furthermore, most teachers I am familiar with would require some consistency of practice if one wanted to do extended retreats.

Which is fair enough. As I said it is a matter of degree
:anjali:
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:34 pm

Cittasanto wrote:but do look up argument
Are you serious?
Cittasanto wrote:only if you do not let it; and that is your choice

Your questions
1. I did not say they were synonymous I said "wrongly become synonymous".
2 & 3 were answered if you read my post.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:51 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:but do look up argument
Are you serious?

yes! you made a personal (potentially derogatory) opinion public, as you have presumed something I wish to either correct or affirm it.

Cittasanto wrote:only if you do not let it; and that is your choice

Your questions
1. I did not say they were synonymous I said "wrongly become synonymous".
2 & 3 were answered if you read my post.

The question was asking for proof of it being so.
and they were asking for clarification.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299



Tilt, how did you find my clarification. It was partly for you.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:51 pm

Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.
And that is not an opinion that is widely shared.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).
It is not going to happen.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299
And the response is: so?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.

So my perception of a/the "Vipasana Movement" in the US is accurate? It's interesting that you mention that the IMS founders still recommend Goenka. What would be more relevant would be if students of the Goenka school were recommended to do retreats at IMS or with other teachers. Or if they were encouraged to visit their local Buddhist temple, Join in communal activities. I believe one of the founders of IMS what at one time authorized to teach the U Ba Khin method.
There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.
And that is not an opinion that is widely shared.
Your opinion here really does not have any greater validity than mine. I'm sure that many believe that when they are being taught the sweeping technique thay are being taught vipasana, you think otherwise.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299
And the response is: so?
I had understood that you wanted me to back up my earlier comments.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:10 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.

So my perception of a/the "Vipasana Movement" in the US is accurate? It's interesting that you mention that the IMS founders still recommend Goenka. What would be more relevant would be if students of the Goenka school were recommended to do retreats at IMS or with other teachers. Or if they were encouraged to visit their local Buddhist temple, Join in communal activities.
I do not know that they don't, and when one is not on retreat, the Goenka people have no say about what you do.

Your opinion here really does not have any greater validity than mine. I'm sure that many believe that when they are being taught the sweeping technique thay are being taught vipasana, you think otherwise.
So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice and that Goenka/U ba Khin's teachings do not fit into the general rubric of vipassana mediation.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=107299#p107299
And the response is: so?
I had understood that you wanted me to back up my earlier comments.
And the "isolation" has been explained. You seem rather obsessed with this isolation business.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I do not know that they don't, and when one is not on retreat, the Goenka people have no say about what you do.
In the end we make our own decisions but if you wish to be a Goenkaji student you are encouraged to make a commitment to following the ways of that group (not just on retreat). We could dismiss this saying it is not unusual for teachers to require commitment but in my opinion it is a question of degree.

So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice
It is no more or no less a vipassana practice than any other activity
and that Goenka/U ba Khin's teachings do not fit into the general rubric of vipassana mediation.
I am not saying that.

And the "isolation" has been explained.
So you acknowledge the "isolation" now?
You seem rather obsessed with this isolation business.
Maybe.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:17 am

Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:21 am

MrMan,
Can you demonstrate any difference between what you have said about Goenka and any other teacher? Or evidence to support your claims I asked for clarification on earlier?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Mr Man » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.


I think that there actually is nothing that I have said that you can actually disagree with. You wish there was but there isn't.
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:12 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.


I think that there actually is nothing that I have said that you can actually disagree with. You wish there was but there isn't.

didn't you use this earlier on me?

Answer questions, show evidence, instead of running away from the requests for them.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby SamKR » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:59 am

Mr Man wrote:
So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice
It is no more or no less a vipassana practice than any other activity

Any other activity? :shock:
Well, sweeping is just a technique out of many; U Ba Khin tradition chose to use sweeping (which is only one aspect of U Ba Khin method). What is more important is whether there is cultivation of understanding about Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, and whether there is reduction of Raga, Dosa, Moha, and if this is being achieved how is this practice no more a vipassana practice than any other activity? Do you think that Goenka teaches just to sweep without any understanding about anicca?
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:02 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.


I think that there actually is nothing that I have said that you can actually disagree with. You wish there was but there isn't.
Sorry, but you have a serious tendency not to respond to questions and points raised in opposition your point of view, and so we go around in circles. It is a waste of time. And damdifino what you are really on about here. So, I am done with this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:53 am

The talk by Ven Analayo that I linked to above: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15528&p=223731#p223731 has some interesting comments about some of the various strands that have become popular in the West (Mahasi/Goenka/Pa Auk), and discusses some aspects of the rise of lay meditation in Burma, starting with the time of Ledi Sayadaw.

The introductory retreat talks by Patrick Kearney discuss the lay movement with a different emphasis (which is understandable, since Patrick was a monk in Burma and has a lot of experience teaching a Mahasi-based approach): http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/audio.html

In the above talk Ven Analayo says that he currently does a body-sweeping technique, but with emphasis on the elements than the U Ban Kihn/Goenka vedana focus. He also has an interesting article about the U Ban Kihn/Goenka approach:
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ations.htm
50) "The Development of Insight – A Study of the U Ba Khin Vipassanā Meditation Tradition as Taught by S.N. Goenka in Comparison with Insight Teachings in the Early Dis­courses", Fuyan Bud­dhist Studies, 2011, vol. 6 pp. 151–174. download


:anjali:
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