is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote: but do look up argument
Are you serious?
Cittasanto wrote:only if you do not let it; and that is your choice
Your questions
1. I did not say they were synonymous I said "wrongly become synonymous".
2 & 3 were answered if you read my post.
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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: but do look up argument
Are you serious?
yes! you made a personal (potentially derogatory) opinion public, as you have presumed something I wish to either correct or affirm it.
Cittasanto wrote:only if you do not let it; and that is your choice
Your questions
1. I did not say they were synonymous I said "wrongly become synonymous".
2 & 3 were answered if you read my post.
The question was asking for proof of it being so.
and they were asking for clarification.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299

Tilt, how did you find my clarification. It was partly for you.
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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.
There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.
And that is not an opinion that is widely shared.
I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).
It is not going to happen.
An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299
And the response is: so?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.
So my perception of a/the "Vipasana Movement" in the US is accurate? It's interesting that you mention that the IMS founders still recommend Goenka. What would be more relevant would be if students of the Goenka school were recommended to do retreats at IMS or with other teachers. Or if they were encouraged to visit their local Buddhist temple, Join in communal activities. I believe one of the founders of IMS what at one time authorized to teach the U Ba Khin method.
There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.
And that is not an opinion that is widely shared.
Your opinion here really does not have any greater validity than mine. I'm sure that many believe that when they are being taught the sweeping technique thay are being taught vipasana, you think otherwise.
An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299
And the response is: so?
I had understood that you wanted me to back up my earlier comments.
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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.
And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.
So my perception of a/the "Vipasana Movement" in the US is accurate? It's interesting that you mention that the IMS founders still recommend Goenka. What would be more relevant would be if students of the Goenka school were recommended to do retreats at IMS or with other teachers. Or if they were encouraged to visit their local Buddhist temple, Join in communal activities.
I do not know that they don't, and when one is not on retreat, the Goenka people have no say about what you do.
Your opinion here really does not have any greater validity than mine. I'm sure that many believe that when they are being taught the sweeping technique thay are being taught vipasana, you think otherwise.
So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice and that Goenka/U ba Khin's teachings do not fit into the general rubric of vipassana mediation.
An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299
And the response is: so?
I had understood that you wanted me to back up my earlier comments.
And the "isolation" has been explained. You seem rather obsessed with this isolation business.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:I do not know that they don't, and when one is not on retreat, the Goenka people have no say about what you do.
In the end we make our own decisions but if you wish to be a Goenkaji student you are encouraged to make a commitment to following the ways of that group (not just on retreat). We could dismiss this saying it is not unusual for teachers to require commitment but in my opinion it is a question of degree.
So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice
It is no more or no less a vipassana practice than any other activity
and that Goenka/U ba Khin's teachings do not fit into the general rubric of vipassana mediation.
I am not saying that.
And the "isolation" has been explained.
So you acknowledge the "isolation" now?
You seem rather obsessed with this isolation business.
Maybe.
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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

MrMan,
Can you demonstrate any difference between what you have said about Goenka and any other teacher? Or evidence to support your claims I asked for clarification on earlier?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.
I think that there actually is nothing that I have said that you can actually disagree with. You wish there was but there isn't.
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Cittasanto
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.
I think that there actually is nothing that I have said that you can actually disagree with. You wish there was but there isn't.
didn't you use this earlier on me?

Answer questions, show evidence, instead of running away from the requests for them.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
SamKR
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by SamKR »

Mr Man wrote:
So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice
It is no more or no less a vipassana practice than any other activity
Any other activity? :shock:
Well, sweeping is just a technique out of many; U Ba Khin tradition chose to use sweeping (which is only one aspect of U Ba Khin method). What is more important is whether there is cultivation of understanding about Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, and whether there is reduction of Raga, Dosa, Moha, and if this is being achieved how is this practice no more a vipassana practice than any other activity? Do you think that Goenka teaches just to sweep without any understanding about anicca?
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tiltbillings
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:. . .
Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.
I think that there actually is nothing that I have said that you can actually disagree with. You wish there was but there isn't.
Sorry, but you have a serious tendency not to respond to questions and points raised in opposition your point of view, and so we go around in circles. It is a waste of time. And damdifino what you are really on about here. So, I am done with this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by mikenz66 »

The talk by Ven Analayo that I linked to above: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p223731" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some interesting comments about some of the various strands that have become popular in the West (Mahasi/Goenka/Pa Auk), and discusses some aspects of the rise of lay meditation in Burma, starting with the time of Ledi Sayadaw.

The introductory retreat talks by Patrick Kearney discuss the lay movement with a different emphasis (which is understandable, since Patrick was a monk in Burma and has a lot of experience teaching a Mahasi-based approach): http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the above talk Ven Analayo says that he currently does a body-sweeping technique, but with emphasis on the elements than the U Ban Kihn/Goenka vedana focus. He also has an interesting article about the U Ban Kihn/Goenka approach:
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ations.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
50) "The Development of Insight – A Study of the U Ba Khin Vipassanā Meditation Tradition as Taught by S.N. Goenka in Comparison with Insight Teachings in the Early Dis­courses", Fuyan Bud­dhist Studies, 2011, vol. 6 pp. 151–174. download
:anjali:
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Mr Man
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Re: is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote:Answer questions, show evidence, instead of running away from the requests for them.
I do answer questions. show evidence, explain my position etc. look back over the thread.
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