Pali Term: Sati

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Spiny Norman »

The approach I've found most helpful is that described by Thera Nyanaponika in The Heart of Meditation, where there is a distinction between "bare attention" ( sati ) and "clear comprehension" ( sati-sampajjana ). It seems consistent with the Satipatthana Sutta, and it also seems consistent with practice.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sekha,
Sekha wrote:In Pali memory and awareness are semantically related, and even confused, because these two phenomena are deeply related in the real world.
Since this is a Pali forum, the statements need to be substantiated by Pali glosses.

'Sati' and 'sampajanna' are clearly differentiated in the Sutta.

“Katama~nca, bhikkhave, satindriya.m? idha, bhikkhave, ariyasaavako satimaa hoti paramena satinepakkena samannaagato cirakatampi cirabhaasitampi saritaa anussaritaa."

(СН V 197-8 )

“Katha~nca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajaano hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti, viditaa upa.t.thahanti, viditaa abbhattha.m gacchanti. Viditaa vitakkaa uppajjanti, viditaa upa.t.thahanti, viditaa abbhattha.m gacchanti. Viditaa sa~n~naa uppajjanti, viditaa upa.t.thahanti, viditaa abbhattha.m gacchanti. Eva.m kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajaano hoti.

(Sati sutta, SN 5:180)

Satipatthana-Vibhanga is also very clear about the difference of these two.
The choice of mindfulness is actually a clever one because it can work as bridge between these concepts, as in memory the mind is "filled" with the sa~n~na of a past phenomenon, and in awareness, the mind is "filled" with the sa~n~na of a present phenomenon.
Should I remind you once again that someone like the Pa Auk Sayadaw, who started studying buddhism at the age of 9 and masters up to the 8th jhana as well as nearly all the insight knowledges of the visuddhimagga, who also knows English fairly, chose for the title of his book on anapanassati: "the mindfulness of breathing"? Would you persist in pretending to be more knowledgeable than him on this issue?
The term 'mindfulness' is ambiguous, and hence can be misleading. This thread is devoted to the discussion of the Pali term "sati", with Pali texts as a reference.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

porpoise wrote:The approach I've found most helpful is that described by Thera Nyanaponika in The Heart of Meditation, where there is a distinction between "bare attention" ( sati ) and "clear comprehension" ( sati-sampajjana ). It seems consistent with the Satipatthana Sutta, and it also seems consistent with practice.
I wonder how the interpretation of 'sati' as 'bare attention' can be consistent with Satipatthana sutta, when this sutta doesn't define 'sati'.
In such a case, any other interpretation, i.e. 'choiceless awareness' of Krishnamurti, would be consistent as well.
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Sekha
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sekha »

Dmytro wrote: The term 'mindfulness' is ambiguous, and hence can be misleading.
Mindfulness is ambiguous because as regards to English semantics, the term sati is ambiguous. That's what I have just been explaining :roll: .
Dmytro wrote: This thread is devoted to the discussion of the Pali term "sati", with Pali texts as a reference.
That's your point of view, and by persisting so tenaciously and repeatedly ignoring counterarguments while reproducing always the same logic, you are actually playing my game as your attitude is simply discrediting yourself.

Some people might interpret Pali texts differently, and also consider direct knowledge through actual practice as well as the words of knowledgeable masters as more valuable sources of knowledge, as explained in the Kalama sutta: direct experience and the opinion of wise men should be our guide, rather than acceptance through pondering views (ie. for example reading Pali litterature and agreeing with this or that interpretation):
don't go by.. agreement through pondering views
(...)
When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them.

When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.
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Last edited by Sekha on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dmytro wrote:
porpoise wrote:The approach I've found most helpful is that described by Thera Nyanaponika in The Heart of Meditation, where there is a distinction between "bare attention" ( sati ) and "clear comprehension" ( sati-sampajjana ). It seems consistent with the Satipatthana Sutta, and it also seems consistent with practice.
I wonder how the interpretation of 'sati' as 'bare attention' can be consistent with Satipatthana sutta, when this sutta doesn't define 'sati'.
In such a case, any other interpretation, i.e. 'choiceless awareness' of Krishnamurti, would be consistent as well.
I regard the Satipatthana Sutta as the primary instructional text for the development of sati. A key phrase in the sutta is "remaining focussed on" various aspects of the 4 frames, which strongly suggests paying attention. And through paying attention, understanding arises.
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badscooter
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter »

porpoise wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
porpoise wrote:The approach I've found most helpful is that described by Thera Nyanaponika in The Heart of Meditation, where there is a distinction between "bare attention" ( sati ) and "clear comprehension" ( sati-sampajjana ). It seems consistent with the Satipatthana Sutta, and it also seems consistent with practice.
I wonder how the interpretation of 'sati' as 'bare attention' can be consistent with Satipatthana sutta, when this sutta doesn't define 'sati'.
In such a case, any other interpretation, i.e. 'choiceless awareness' of Krishnamurti, would be consistent as well.
I regard the Satipatthana Sutta as the primary instructional text for the development of sati. A key phrase in the sutta is "remaining focussed on" various aspects of the 4 frames, which strongly suggests paying attention. And through paying attention, understanding arises.
I agree with this... :smile:
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sekha,
Sekha wrote:
Dmytro wrote: This thread is devoted to the discussion of the Pali term "sati", with Pali texts as a reference.
That's your point of view, ...
This being the Pali Forum it is a reasonable statement. Admittedly, there is inevitable cross-over, but this area is intended to be for technical discussion of Pali, not discussion of meditative experience.

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Sekha
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sekha »

well, I think this is a point underlying this whole discussion. Accepting only textual sources as a valid source of knowledge, even on a Pali forum discussing technical Pali terms, is imo a mistake. There can be no understanding of those technical terms without direct knowledge, and the opinion of knowledgeable experts, whatever the subject of a discussion may be, is also to be taken into account and discussed, perhaps even rejected, but not simply ignored.

Otherwise the outcome is the one I pointed to a couple of my post back. Dmytro is right (or can almost arguably be considered so) if you only take into account the textual side of things. He is wrong if you consider the effect of his statement on beginners who may take that word for the truth and get confused while trying to meditate. Many people want to acquire some knowledge of Pali in order to understand the practice better, and that will most probably confuse them.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Sekha wrote:Otherwise the outcome is the one I pointed to a couple of my post back. Dmytro is right (or can almost arguably be considered so) if you only take into account the textual side of things. He is wrong if you consider the effect of his statement on beginners who may take that word for the truth and get confused while trying to meditate. Many people want to acquire some knowledge of Pali in order to understand the practice better, and that will most probably confuse them.
All one has to do is take the textual side, as has been shown above. The texts, as has been shown, contrary to Dmytro's rigid claim, do show an expansion of the meaning of sati beyond just mere memory. This is something that the brilliant scholar, Ven Analayo has argued for convincingly in his excellent book, SATIPATTHANA and well as Rupert Gethin in various source have been quoted above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Sekha
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sekha »

tiltbillings wrote: The texts, as has been shown, contrary to Dmytro's rigid claim, do show an expansion of the meaning of sati beyond just mere memory. This is something that the brilliant scholar, Ven Analayo has argued for convincingly in his excellent book, SATIPATTHANA and well as Rupert Gethin in various source have been quoted above.
As for me, we don't even need any scholar to understand that sati refers to the peception of present moment phenomena. The standard definition of sammasati or satipatthana is self-explanatory.

As to Dmytro's counterargument to this:
Dmytro wrote:The samma-sati (appropriate or right remembrance) passage you refer to does not give the definition of 'sati'. Here sutta describes the right ways to apply the eight factors. The description of right action:
"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action."
doesn't mean that the definition of "action" is "abstaining".
Similarly, the definition of 'sati' through four satipatthanas dosnt mean that the definition of "remembrance" (sati) is "being focused" (anupassana).
we can state however that the definition of right action IS abstaining.
similarly, the definition of right sati IS "being focused" (anupassana), and that's all I am concerned with.

Sati may sometimes be clearly used in other contexts as memory, as in the Sotānugata sutta, where it is wrongly translated as mindfulness by sister upalavanna:
Like a man clever in knowing the sound of drums, gone to the highway hears the sound of a drum and he does not doubt, whether it is the sound of a drum or not, but concludes it is the sound of a drum. In the same manner the bhikkhu learns the Teaching as discourses, verse and prose sections, ... re ... and series of questions and answers and becomes learned in that Teaching, He practices it verbally, mentally gathers the meaning and he straightens his view. He dies with confused mindfulness and is born with a certain retinue of gods. There he does not voice the Teaching skillfully, becomes successful in teaching the heavenly gathering. Then he recalls isn't it in this Teaching and Discipline that I earlier led the holy life. Mindfulness arises to him slowly and he quickly rises to the next higher state.
memory here would be a better rendering.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Hi Porpoise,
porpoise wrote:I regard the Satipatthana Sutta as the primary instructional text for the development of sati. A key phrase in the sutta is "remaining focussed on" various aspects of the 4 frames, which strongly suggests paying attention. And through paying attention, understanding arises.
Won't you mind looking at another sutta?

Sato bhikkhave, bhikkhu vihareyya sampajāno, ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī.

At Savatthi. "Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all.

Kathañca bhikkhave, bhikkhu sato hoti: idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Evaṃ kho bhikkhave, bhikkhu sato hoti.

"And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk is mindful.

Kathañca bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajāno hoti: idha bhikkhave, bhikkhuno viditā vedanā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Evaṃ kho bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajāno hoti.

"And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is how a monk is alert.

Sato bhikkhave bhikkhu vihareyya sampajāno, ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanīti.

"So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here the function of 'sati' is too keep in mind the particular sphere (satipatthana), while the function of 'sampajanna' is to keep track of what is going on in the particular sphere.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:The texts, as has been shown, contrary to Dmytro's rigid claim, do show an expansion of the meaning of sati beyond just mere memory.
Your implication that I state that 'sati' means just mere memory, is an outward lie.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The texts, as has been shown, contrary to Dmytro's rigid claim, do show an expansion of the meaning of sati beyond just mere memory.
Your implication that I state that 'sati' means just mere memory, is an outward lie.
Yes, you do offer a something of a nuanced view of sati, though I would rather take Ven Analayo's and particularly Gethin's broader point of view, as we have discussed at length above, over yours. Interestingly, you do seem to have changed -- or clarified -- your point of view from the start of this thread. So, my apologies for not acknowledging the flexibility you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Porpoise,
porpoise wrote:I regard the Satipatthana Sutta as the primary instructional text for the development of sati. A key phrase in the sutta is "remaining focussed on" various aspects of the 4 frames, which strongly suggests paying attention. And through paying attention, understanding arises.
Won't you mind looking at another sutta?

Sato bhikkhave, bhikkhu vihareyya sampajāno, ayaṃ vo amhākaṃ anusāsanī.

At Savatthi. "Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all.

Kathañca bhikkhave, bhikkhu sato hoti: idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Evaṃ kho bhikkhave, bhikkhu sato hoti.

"And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk is mindful.
This is one of the ways i define sati... Staying focused (which keeps one in the present moment)
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dmytro wrote:Here the function of 'sati' is to keep in mind the particular sphere (satipatthana), while the function of 'sampajanna' is to keep track of what is going on in the particular sphere.
Interesting. So how do think sampajanna is best translated? Is it something like "fully aware"?
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